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 GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE

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PostSubject: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 8:11 am

SUBJECT: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE








I have a GRRW flintlock conversion, .54 caliber, fullstock in excellent condition. Former GRRW kit gun or gun in the white from the early ‘70’s, has sat in a gun safe more than used, so it’s time for this rifle to find a new home. Have new GRRW.CA rifles crossing my doorstep that I really like, makes life to confusing on what I like best.

FOR SALE


GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle that left GRRW as a kit or possibly an assembled in the white rifle.  Some think this early full stock Leman may have been a factory finished rifle.  It is a careful job of stocking and finish. No maker’s mark and no GRRW on barrel, some of the early guns left the shop like this per Carl Walker (former GRRW gunsmith and first employee). 


This Leman started life as a cap-lock rifle in .54 x 1-1/16” x 30” straight barrel, brass hardware including the aftermarket brass cap box, fine curly maple stock.  The bore size is stamped near the breech on left flat, but no other markings.  The inletting, shaping and wood finish are very good and match that of GRRW factory rifles. 


This gun seems to like 70 grains of 2FF and a .530 round ball with .015  patching as a good shooting load.  Maybe a little hotter if hunting elk needing longer shots. 


It has been converted to an L&R Manton flintlock that fits the mortise.  The fence of lock to wood and breech, pan centered on touchhole etc. are done correctly.


Asking price $1,400.00 plus shipping and insurance.


Thank you for your time, Buck Conner.


SALE PENDING

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 8:15 am

Would the Trade Rifle have had such fancy wood?

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 8:33 am

Muley,

A few years ago at the "Museum of the Fur Trade" Chardon NE and at the "Museum of the Mountain Man" Pinedale WY there were several "Presentation Guns" (term used for guns presented to Chiefs). This Leman for sale is average for what was seen of these fancier than usual Lemans.

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 8:41 am

Those are probably never used. You'll agree the average trade gun used plain wood? Actually, on the lower end of plain wood. They were about as cheap as guns got to buy back then.

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 10:34 am

Conner

first! nice gun.....wish I had the extra cash because in my opinion any GRRW rifle is worth a lot more and will in the future.

Secondly, here is a collection of original Leman rifles, both trade and otherwise. A number of them have fancy grained stocks, while a couple have stocks that were "artificially" stripped by burning stripes into the plain maple stocks. Apparently "Tiger striped" stocks were so popular with the "trading partners" that Leman would take the extra time and effort to faux the stocks. I don't believe that the effort was for chief's grade alone. The number of original chief's grades that I have seen from the 18th an 19th century actually show a great deal of use...often hard use.

Here is a close up of some....wish I had a clearer photo. However Google images has a page showing a number of originals with striping both faux and striped maple:

Though it is true the vast majority of all trade guns/rifles throughout the 16th-18th century were plain and inexpensive, Leman as an example did produce some guns a bit above standard in regards to "bells and whistles"


Here's a close up of Leman faux striping


Here's a particularly fine example of a Leman trade rifle that has fancy checkering as well as faux striping.



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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 10:39 am

I never said some weren't fancy. I said the average trade rifles sold to Indians and MM were very plain. They only cost $4.00-5.00.

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 10:48 am

Muley wrote:
I never said some weren't fancy. I said the average trade rifles sold to Indians and MM were very plain. They only cost $4.00-5.00.


Doc White along with Charles Hanson Jr and several other knowledgeable collectors claimed "that when building these rifles; Leman or Hawken they used what they had at hand". When an order came in they sold whatever was ready, some were 'cookie cutter' (similar) examples while others may have different wood, locks, barrels or whatever was available at the time when assembling. Bottom line money was money, somethings never change.

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 11:01 am

I guess when I think of a Trade Rifle in the fur trade era i'm thinking more the Northwest Trade gun more that the Leman version.

Doug.....You busted the margin in this thread with your picture/text. Please fix it. It makes it a pain to read the posts.

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 11:21 am

headslap My offering was merely to facilitate Connor's attempt to sell the rifle.

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 11:26 am

Nothing I said will hurt the sale.

I was just making conversation. I like talking about anything in the fur trade era.

Ok with you?

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 12:00 pm

Muley wrote:
Nothing I said will hurt the sale.

I was just making conversation. I like talking about anything in the fur trade era.

Ok with you?
Brian Keith was talking to us at a movie set and remarked "I'm really having a good time talking about history, fur trade history". Then he looked around at those sitting by the fire and said "looks like a few butt heads are enjoying the fire, is that OK with you" looking at Charleston Heston. Heston said "I are OK is that good with you". We looked at both of them then started laughing ....

Kind of like Muley "OK with you?" ??

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 12:02 pm

I watched that movie 5-6 times. It must have rubbed off on me. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 12:50 pm

Muley wrote:
I guess when I think of a Trade Rifle in the fur trade era i'm thinking more the Northwest Trade gun more that the Leman version.

H. E. Leman had government contracts for military, Indian Affairs, supplier contracts for the fur trade along with other trade firm in other parts of the world. His firm made thousands of rifles and smooth bore NW guns for years. I read that the Lancaster area was a bee hive of activity with the gun building industry in the mid 1700's through the mid to late 1800's.

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 2:21 pm

This is what I have in mind. Quite plain and different design to the gun you're selling.


http://thefurtrapper.com/home-page/indian-trade-guns/

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 3:38 pm

Muley wrote:
This is what I have in mind. Quite plain and different design to the gun you're selling.

http://thefurtrapper.com/home-page/indian-trade-guns/

I have written several research papers on the NW gun, published a book title "Success In The North American Fur Trade" that got listed for students of North American History by the US Library of Congress 1995. Have owned many "NW Trade Guns", "Squirrel" or "Barn Guns" (referred to by eastern collectors in the 1950's).

I have known Ned Eddins for years, when editor of the North American Frontiersmen Assoc. Journal I had Ned writing for us bi-monthly. Several of the photos are from guns I have owned, sharing photos when asked.

Here's a picture you may know (original close up of lock), this is the NW gun we make.


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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 5:11 pm

Yes, and that's what I think of as the Trade Rifle for the MM era.

If i'm not mistaken Leman started his shop towards the end of the fur trade era and the rifle for sale here is much later.

btw..No need for the bio. I know who you are. It doesn't change the facts. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 5:15 pm

I recently read in The Gunsmith of Grenville County that 
wood on the early rifles was indeed a case of grabbing what 
was suitable and 'nearby' in the earlier gun trade. 

This would mean that the majority of early rifles were not heavily 
striped or grained. However, if that was what was handy? It happened. 

Further, it went on to make the case that the Indian trade for 
rifles actually was the original source for the push toward long 
rifles that led to the Kentucky and Pennsylvania and some decoration. 
Some European folks actually styled themselves and their arms like 
their native American Indian role models.

When the trade began to dissipate, gunsmiths added more 
inlay, engraving, and highlighted the wood grain to help place 
their product above that of the competition.

This means that higher percentages of 'fancier' woods and furniture 
tend to come from later in the Golden Age of black powder rifles. 

It does not mean that grained wood was not used before. It was.

I think of it like how we treat shovels today... 
Rifles are just tools like shovels. 
Back in the day, you were happy if you just got a shovel. 
It did not have to be fancy. It was just a tool. 

Now? Most of us use shovels as gardeners/hobbyists. 
So, shovels today are made 'special.' 



Read the following with your favorite rich actor voice...

"Crafted of solid oak and stainless steel, this spade will provide years of rugged and reliable service in the garden."

  • Polished stainless-steel head resists rust.
  • Stamped with Joseph Bentley’s signature oval badge.
  • Solid ash wood handle.
  • Designed by Joseph Bentley, a horticultural tool company founded in Sheffield, England, in 1895.


Earlier shovel buyers just wanted a functional tool- not a special decorative stamp. (And, yes... this is a spade not a shovel.) 
I think there is some relevance to the comparison.

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 8:49 pm

Muley wrote:
If i'm not mistaken Leman started his shop towards the end of the fur trade era and the rifle for sale here is much later.
Muley, Leman was involved in the fur trade era and beyond. Look at the numbers built and the prices of the different guns.

Henry E. Leman was the last of the great Lancaster Pa. gunsmiths. He worked as a gunsmith in Lancaster from 1834 until 1887. His factories turned out large orders of commercial quality guns as opposed to higher quality made-to-order pieces for individuals. Most remaining Leman guns are from the percussion ignition period. Leman was born in Lancaster March 8, 1812.  In 1831 Leman moved to Phila. to work in the Tryon gun factory. He was involved in the middle of the North American Fur Trade when learning his trade working for these builders from 1828 to 1834 when starting his own business. He returned to Lancaster in 1834 and started his own gun business, located at Mifflen Street west of Duke.

During his first year's operations Leman made 250 rifles. One of his earliest orders was from John N. Lane in St. Louis for 50 rifles to be used in the Indian trade. The forge and rifle mill for his business were on the At the age of sixteen in 1828 he was apprenticed to Lancaster gunsmith Melchior Fordney. East bank of the Conestoga River about a hundred yards above the confluence with Lititz Creek near the village of Catfish, now called Oregon. The machinery, of course, was operated by water power. Stocking, lockwork, etc., were all done in Lancaster. Leman lived in a county seat called "Cedar Hill" near his mill at Catfish. His rifle business grew steadily and on November 7, 1837, he received his first government contract for 500 flintlock rifles, triumphing, along with Deringer, Tryon and J. Fordney, over a field of a dozen other makers who submitted rifles for examination and trial. Price of the rifles was $14.00 each and in general they were flintlocks with long patch boxes and barrels about 42 inches long. Each rifle had a woolen cover and was accompanied by a mold, wiper and charger. They were to be packed in boxes of not more than 25 rifles each. First proof was one-half ounce of powder and two patched balls. Second proof was one-half ounce of powder and one patched ball. Finished rifles were inspected. Apparently the contract was completed satisfactorily: he had finished 310 rifles by July 14, 1838.

Leman boldy entered the manufacture of Northwest Indian trade guns and received a government contract to make 500 of them, together with 250 plain powder horns and pouches, on February 8,1842. In August of the same year he was awarded another contract for 600 Northwest guns of two barrel lengths and 300 each of powder horns and shot pouches. He was now in direct competition with the Tryon Company and by 1855 he had eliminated it as a competitor for government Northwest gun contracts. During these years Leman made a wide variety of rifles for the regular civilian market. Many of the surviving specimens are long Lancaster rifles, often stocked in plain maple artifically striped. As early as 1840 he also repaired muskets and other arms for the state at Philadelphia, Harrisburg, and Meadville Arsenals. Leman was an energetic businessman. An 1839 advertisement in the Lancaster Intelligencer advised the readers that "The subscriber has constantly on hand several hundred Rifles, of every description, and particularly calls the attention of persons removing to the west. Also double and single barrel shot guns, Armstrong dueling pistols, Rifle barrels, etc., all of which are warranted. Henry E. Leman." Contracts with fur trading companies were vigorously pushed. The Ewing Brothers of Fort Wayne, Indiana and points west, were good customers. One of their orders in 1849 included 100 rifles, bores 30 to 35 to the pound, two thirds with bright barrels at $7.45 each, one-third browned barrels at $7.60. Rifles were one-half flint and one-half percussion. In 1850 they bought 34 flint "Indian rifles" at $7.45, thirteen ditto with browned barrels at $7.60, 31 percussion Indian rifles with bright barrels at $7.20 and 19 ditto with browned barrels at $7.85. About 1850 the country mill near Catfish was abandoned and Leman built a new factory in Lancaster, at the corner of Walnut Street and Cherry Alley, which utilized steam power. The building was still standing a few years ago, divided into row houses. The new factory consolidated his operations and speeded up production.

On January 17, 1852, he wrote one of the western fur trading companies, "The style and finish of the Rifles have improved since we are now in the new factory." According to the 1850 census Leman had 34 employees. During the year ending June 1, 1850, he bought 50 tons of bar iron, 2,500 gun barrels and 2,500 pounds of brass. Production for that year was 5,000 gun barrels and 2,500 complete guns.

Resources:
The Free Library by Farlex
Henry E. Leman, Riflemaker Charles E. Hanson, Jr.

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 8:53 pm

@Kentucky Colonel wrote:
I think of it like how we treat shovels today... 
Rifles are just tools like shovels. 
Back in the day, you were happy if you just got a shovel. 
It did not have to be fancy. It was just a tool. 

Now? Most of us use shovels as gardeners/hobbyists. 
So, shovels today are made 'special.' 




Smith & Hawken have excellent garden tools that can be referenced back to the early 1830's, great source for the reenactors.

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 9th 2016, 10:03 pm



t up

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 10th 2016, 5:05 am

Conner............Yes, he served his apprenticeship early, but if we're talking about his guns we can only count the ones with his name on them. That would be after he opened his own shop.

His Indian Rifle was more for the Indians during the later wars than the MM era which ended only a few years after he opened his shop.

This has gone off in sort of the wrong direction. My interest begins and ends with the MM era. Some say it's not that correct to have a Hawken if your reenacting the MM era. Of course, that's not true, but admittedly there weren't a lot of Hawken rifles owned by the MM.

Anyway, it's been an interesting discussion. Now, i'm off to hunt.

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 10th 2016, 7:48 am

Muley wrote:
Conner............Yes, he served his apprenticeship early, but if we're talking about his guns we can only count the ones with his name on them. That would be after he opened his own shop.

His Indian Rifle was more for the Indians during the later wars than the MM era which ended only a few years after he opened his shop.


You need to look at this link Muley.  http://furtradebooks.tripod.com/those.that.carried.htm


Are you saying the date of 1837 (mid - era fur trade) to 1850 (late - fur trade) that these mountaineers with Hawkens like; Baker, Beckworth, Bent, Carson, Bridger, Charbonneau, Ferris, Johnson, Smith and others were late comers? Some were and many weren't. What about Black Beaver, Brown, Craig, Helm, Janis or Joseph Walker that carried marked Lemans?  Some collectors would be very unhappy after spending more money than most earn in a life time with your thoughts.

Look at the list and this is only a short list of thoses that carried either Hawken or Leman guns (many men were mid-period fur trade) now there guns are in collections today.  Stephen Meek is one example - born 1807, went to work for Sublette's Rocky Mountain Fur Company in 1827, worked for Bonneville in 1831. Later he is seen at Ft. Laramie in the 1840's, and later years in Siskiyoy CA. died in 1889. Many of these mountaineers had long interesting lives with the fur trade period just a small part of what and where they had traveled.

I agree that the Hawken rifle was late only because of the operation in St. Louis, Leman was building close to the beginning of the fur trade 1820 under another name, with marked gun (his name) in 1837 -mid fur trade and on.

"If one studies the whole fur trade era in North America you would find more military arms than custom built ones (Hawken, Leman and so on) made it to the mountains"....  "Many had no funds, they had their military musket from past service and just went to the mountains with whatever they had".... per Hanson - several of the 'Fur Trade Quarterlies'..
I'm not preaching history Muley (I know I'll be accused of such) bounce afro

The NW trade gun market started back in the 1600's (before the fur trade era) with trade to the Indians and lasted into the 1950's (a hundred years after the so called fur trade). Many of the French trappers (breeds) carried several of these firearms being light and cheap when compared to other guns. Read the history of the east coast and you'll find reference to these NW guns (many called "farm guns" or "squirrel guns" being cheap used for protection or taking care of unwanted animals on their homesteads) some found in estate sales today. HBC and several other firms saw the flintlock era, percussion era and finally the cartridge era before dropping their name markings of old.

So these NW trade guns with this length of production wouldn't count in your fur trade. Are you saying they were for Indian only? Wrong.

Yes I agree this got way off on the sale of this rifle, needs to end.

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 10th 2016, 4:33 pm

cheers
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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 10th 2016, 4:41 pm

@Marty wrote:
cheers


Basketball  Arrow   ear bug

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PostSubject: Re: GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle FOR SALE   September 10th 2016, 4:54 pm

@conner wrote:
Quote :




Smith & Hawken have excellent garden tools that can be referenced back to the early 1830's, great source for the reenactors.

Smith and Hawken went out of business in 2009. Target acquired the branding rights in 2010. 

I am afraid I do not have much trust in Target products as I have encountered failure and stupidity. 
An example? A gardening wearing can that contained harmful materials in it's construction. (I am sorry, 
I do not remember the exact problem, but it was serious and I was stunned they would allow it.)

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