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 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?

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CoHiCntry

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PostSubject: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 17th 2014, 7:34 pm

I'm out of T7 and gonna switch the Omega over to BH209. I need some powder for the new sidelock though. I wouldn't mind sticking with T7 for the ease of cleaning but am concerned with having ignition problems. I'm not against switching over to Pyrodex, but would be nice to stick with T7. So what's everyones opinion/ experiences using T7 in a sidelock? If powder wasn't so expensive I'd just try both, but I don't wanna buy an expensive jug of powder and not be able to use it. Thanks...
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 17th 2014, 7:40 pm

Personally, I don't like any of the subs in sidelocks, but a lot of guys do.

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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 18th 2014, 12:26 am

I agree with Pete , use real black .
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 18th 2014, 7:23 am

@Spitfire wrote:
I agree with Pete , use real black .

Why is that? Advantages, disadvantages???
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 18th 2014, 7:53 am

No advantages , more dirty than the subs .....but it creates a lot of smoke !  To me that is the way a muzzleloader should be used.
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 18th 2014, 7:57 am

@Spitfire wrote:
No advantages , more dirty than the subs .....but it creates a lot of smoke !  To me that is the way a muzzleloader should be used.

OK, gotcha. So just more of a personal choice. Anybody else out there have experience trying T7 in a traditional and the outcome?
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 18th 2014, 8:54 am

With some subs you might have trouble igniting the main charge with a #11 cap.
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 18th 2014, 8:56 am

Black powder has a lower ignition temp. Which translates to more reliable, quicker ignition in sidelocks.

I feel if you're going to use a traditional gun. use the powder it was designed to use.

Otherwise just use modern powders in modern inlines.

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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 18th 2014, 10:32 am

if you have to use a sub, 3f is better as the 2f versions are very chunky in size and often cause misfires.

Blackpowder is a hell of a lot better, easier to ignite in all weather conditions and typically is more consistent in velocity and does not go bad. Dirtier? Not really, it does not leave that nasty thick crust build up like t7 does in the bore.

Select is VERY thick and I honestly dont know if it will flow into the patent breech plug. Its darn near the size of american pioneer 2f.
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CoHiCntry

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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 18th 2014, 10:36 am

@FrontierGander wrote:
if you have to use a sub, 3f is better as the 2f versions are very chunky in size and often cause misfires.

Blackpowder is a hell of a lot better, easier to ignite in all weather conditions and typically is more consistent in velocity and does not go bad. Dirtier? Not really, it does not leave that nasty thick crust build up like t7 does in the bore.

Select is VERY thick and I honestly dont know if it will flow into the patent breech plug. Its darn near the size of american pioneer 2f.

I don't "have" to use a sub, I've never used real black powder so my experience is lacking. I might try it though? Thanks for all the replies.
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 18th 2014, 1:18 pm

I only use BH209 and real black powder.
Although I've been told that 'I'm full of it', I believe that Pyrodex is more corrosive than black powder and it does deteriorate after several years of storage. The one gun I used to use Pyrodex in years ago is rough as a cob down near the breech. The ones I used black powder in are fine.

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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 18th 2014, 1:37 pm

I've got 150+ year old rifles that only saw black powder and they are also still in good nick , so black powder can't be that bad.
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 18th 2014, 2:04 pm

@patocazador wrote:
I only use BH209 and real black powder.
Although I've been told that 'I'm full of it', I believe that Pyrodex is more corrosive than black powder and it does deteriorate after several years of storage. The one gun I used to use Pyrodex in years ago is rough as a cob down near the breech. The ones I used black powder in are fine.


I'm not sure why anybody would argue that Pyro isn't more corrosive than BP? It's pretty well known, so whoever did it has their noggin up their rump. To put it kindly.

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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 18th 2014, 11:55 pm

I've seen our sugar based sub is also much more corrosive than black powder.
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 19th 2014, 10:57 am

Pyrodex is a better powder for traditional muzzleloaders than 777.  777 is harder to ignite than Pyrodex, although it works well in my New Englander when i slap the breech after loading the powder.  

Yep,  the residue left from firing Pyrodex is corrosive.   No surprise since it contain the same ingredients as black powder; sulfur, charcoal and potassium nitrate.  Additionally, Pyrodex contains potassium perchlorate and some other ingredients.   Sulfur is the one ingredient most responsible for rusting of gun bores.  

777 does not contain sulfur.  However, the residue left from firing  777 can rust the gun bore. 

Guns rust when their owners don't clean them soon after firing.  My first inline gun is a CVA Stag Horn, bought in 2000.   It's been fired at least 5,000 times, probably many more.  Most of those rounds were fired using Pyrodex RS.  The bore is in perfect condition with no rust or pitting.  That gun is still capable of making 100 yard three shot groups that measure 1.25-1.5".


Last edited by falcon on April 19th 2014, 11:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 19th 2014, 11:05 am

You're right Falcon , the secret is to clean the gun right after shooting it.....no matter which powder was used.
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 19th 2014, 1:57 pm

So are the cleaning procedures the same with real black powder compared to Pyrodex or other subs?  Probably a dumb question but like I said, I've never used real black powder.
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 19th 2014, 2:06 pm

Yup! Soap and water.

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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 19th 2014, 6:42 pm

Absolutely, do yourself a favor if you are shooting sidelocks , shoot black. Advantages. Easier ignition. In my opinion more consistent for that reason. Less corrosive than Pyrodex. More smoke if that's your thing. If you gravitate to flinters you will definitely want the real thing. Goex was my powder until they came out with Olde Eynsford. That is all I have shot since.1.5 F in my smooth bores with shot and 2f in both my percussion guns and flintlocks. As far as clean burning I would put it up against any sub. The price difference between the 2, Goex and Olde E is minimal.
One argument I hear for shooting subs is that black can be hard to find. It is easily available by order from many sources . My last order came from Graf & Sons. Your hazmat and handling fee will be the same regardless of the quantity you purchase. Even a 5# order with all fees included will run about $23 per  pound. Increase your order and the price goes down. What are you paying for your subs?
My front stuffers see nothing but black.
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 19th 2014, 9:15 pm

i shoot mostly subs because blackpowder is such cruddy stuff.  Much of the blackpowder made today leaves more crud on firing than the Du Pont powder available in the 1960s.
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 19th 2014, 9:26 pm

@falcon wrote:
i shoot mostly subs because blackpowder is such cruddy stuff.  Much of the blackpowder made today leaves more crud on firing than the Du Pont powder available in the 1960s.

Using Mr Flintlock patch lube I shot 30 loads with no swabbing and Olde Enysford powder using a PRB. I think I could have gone on forever without swabbing. The 30th load was just as easy to load, and just as accurate as the first loads.

Switching to maxiballs with the BB lube they come with. I did 10 shots with no swabbing. Not sure how far I could have gone without swabbing with those.

With both loads I used a spit patch, and a dry to clean the bore clean. That was just a range cleaning to see how dirty the bore was. Of course I flushed with soap and water when I got home.


Black powder is dirty? I guess, but what powder isn't?

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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 19th 2014, 11:41 pm

That spit patch does wonders for ease of loading ......
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 20th 2014, 9:16 am

I didn't use a spit patch to load. Just clean when I was done shooting.

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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 20th 2014, 9:44 am

You mean you never cleaned between 30 shots , then that lube really works....my mix I get between 10 to 15 shots (depending on the load used ) and I have to swab the barrel.
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PostSubject: Re: 777 or Pyrodex Select for Traditional?   April 20th 2014, 9:56 am

I didn't swab at all. Keep in my I had to swab every single shot using TOW mink oil.

I'm more than impressed with the Mr Flintlock lube. Which is the original Lehigh formula. Great stuff.

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