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 Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?

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Alpha8D



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PostSubject: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 12th 2014, 6:02 pm

One of the biggest challenges to hunting with ML for me has been finding a good way to make sure the first round out of the muzzle (when Mr. Big saunters through my shooting lane) hits where I zeroed it.


My theory so far,  barrel condition in the field must be the same as it was on the range when I zeroed the rifle.


Seems we have 2 options: A- Shoot a fouling  "conditioning shot" OR B- Load a perfectly clean dry barrel.
I've opted for B since I may hunt for days on and off without ever firing and don't want to have to thoroughly clean and dry the gun each evening when I return to the cabin.
Also don't want to leave a load in a fouled (shot from) barrel.

What do you do? I'd really like to hear suggestions.



Thanks, 
Alpha8D
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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 12th 2014, 6:06 pm

I like to hunt with a clean barrel if the gun likes that. I don't care where the gun shoots with a clean barrel compared to where it shoots with a fouled barrel. As long as it does the same thing everytime. If it's inconsistent with a clean barrel, and sprays all over the target. Then i'll hunt with a fouled barrel.

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Alpha8D



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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 12th 2014, 6:46 pm

Thanks Pete,
Like you I prefer to hunt with clean barrel.
That way no worries regards corrosion over several days hunting and the changes to barrel conditions that would cause. I will work hard to tweak all other conditions to get clean barrel consistncy rather than shoot a fouled barrel. 
But... I'm shooting pyrodex and the solvents are water based so after cleaning and dry patching, bore is unlubricated and some slight film of rust appears, not much but enough to see it on a clean patch.
Maybe that's being too picky? 
I cant wait to get my hands on some Blackthorn 209 so I can clean with Hoppes #9 and that I know will protect bore from rust. Then maybe the bore left cleran between shots can be the same bore I hunt with so to speak.
What thinkest you?
Alpha8D
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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 12th 2014, 7:01 pm

After you clean, a patch with just a little Ballistol will keep the surface rust away.

You'll love BH 209 compared to Pyrodex.

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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 12th 2014, 7:58 pm

Had my MR sighted in and cleaned it weeks before season started - missed a buck on opening morning. Went to the range and put a couple more through it - hit bullseye at 50 yds, loaded it (fouled) and took a doe the next morning. Using BH209 - lesson learned (I think) was not to clean after final sight-in.
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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 12th 2014, 8:02 pm

I like to take a middle approach I clean my barrel but I will fire 3 CCI Mag 209 primers which puts some soot in the barrel seems to be a little more consistent.
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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 13th 2014, 4:02 am

My TC Triumph puts the bullet on bullseye with a clean barrel at 100 yards.  The next two shots with a spit patch between shots will stay within an inch.

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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 13th 2014, 5:20 pm

i hunt with a clean barrel.
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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 13th 2014, 7:38 pm

I like to start with a clean barrel, bust 3 or4 caps for some soot. A hunting I will go.
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Alpha8D



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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 15th 2014, 2:14 pm

Thank you gentlemen! I appreciate the advise.

Just sighted in my new CVA Accura mountain rifle with 100gr Pyrodex, 250 gr TC shockwave sabots and CCI 209 primer. Needed 4 wet patches, both sides of each followed by 4 dry patches to get a clean bore. But results were good (for me). 3-12 to 4" group at 100 yds. This was the last group shot and it was 6 shots: 3 at 9X, 1 at 6x and the last 2 at 4X on the KONUSPRO 3-9 x 40 scope that came with the gun.

I've had troubles in the past with scopes that changed the impact point if you changed magnification power but this one seems not to have that. I will hunt with this gun this season for 9 day regular gun season followed by 10 days MZ loader season.

Good luck to all!
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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 17th 2014, 6:57 am

After I sight in, it stays dirty until end of the season. Why would you sight it in with a clean barrel and be good for one shot? What if you need a follow up, now you don't know where you will hit. What if you shoot a deer and have an opportunity to take a second deer while you let the first one expire? Are you going to take cleaning supplies out and swab for these scenarios? 

This is why I love about BH209. I know I can leave it dirty and it will be right where I sighted in. When season is over clean it up and looks brand new. Why anyone would use powder other than BH209 is beyond me.
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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 17th 2014, 7:33 am

i clean mine after ever shooting session.ive been cleaning with eezox and never had a first shoot problem since i started using it.fire two primers and accurracy stays the same in my optimas and acurra.i shoot blackhorn and fiocchi primers in all my muzzleloaders
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Alpha8D



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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 17th 2014, 11:52 am

@shaw24 wrote:
After I sight in, it stays dirty until end of the season. Why would you sight it in with a clean barrel and be good for one shot? What if you need a follow up, now you don't know where you will hit. What if you shoot a deer and have an opportunity to take a second deer while you let the first one expire? Are you going to take cleaning supplies out and swab for these scenarios? 

This is why I love about BH209. I know I can leave it dirty and it will be right where I sighted in. When season is over clean it up and looks brand new. Why anyone would use powder other than BH209 is beyond me.
Shaw24,
Yes, I do take cleaning supplies with me. I take a film canister with about 20 wet patches, about 20 dry patches and a cleaning / bullet seating jag.
I load the gun at the cabin the evening before beginning of the season on a clean barrel.
I carry 3 premeasured tubes of 100 gr pyrodex  and 3 TC shockwave bullets with their black sabots. Also half a dozen CCI 209 primers.
After I shoot I take my time and carefully clean my gun with 4 wet (both sides) followed by 4 dry (both sides).
This cleaning is the same as I do between shots on the range so my zero there is my zero in the field.
Then I reload, prime and have a cup of coffee while I wait the rest of the 1/2 hour to pass before getting out of my ground blind, walking down the shooting lane and looking for my deer.
Muzzle loaders are really a one shot deal. Scrambling for a second shot doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

I used to hunt with an H&R break open 30-30 single shot and I'll admit I shot less carefully then and was quick to pop in another round and check my shooting lanes for a second opportunity at the same deer. Muzzle loading has made me a better hunter.

But...however a man chooses to hunt is fine with me, (on HIS land) so long as it's safe and he enjoys it.
Good luck!

Alpha8D

ps. I ordered some BH209 and look forward to using it but the above is how I'll hunt again this year.
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monk d



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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 17th 2014, 4:23 pm

I hunt with a clean barrel. I have experienced shot string after the second shot (dirty barrel), and typically can only get about 5 or 6 shots before it gets too tight to ram the bullet down the bore. I am shooting a Hawken cap lock. I should mention that I shoot real black.

When I sight in for 75 yards I run 2 alcohol patches and 2-4 dry patches after each shot for about 3 shots and then let the barrel cool, and this has given me good consistent groups. In the field, I will reload once on a dirty barrel. I carry a possibles bag with patches, alcohol, bullets, powder, measure, and a small can with various tools for emergency work if needed. It only weighs a pound or two.
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Alpha8D



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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 17th 2014, 5:11 pm

@monk d wrote:
I hunt with a clean barrel. I have experienced shot string after the second shot (dirty barrel), and typically can only get about 5 or 6 shots before it gets too tight to ram the bullet down the bore. I am shooting a Hawken cap lock. I should mention that I shoot real black.

When I sight in for 75 yards I run 2 alcohol patches and 2-4 dry patches after each shot for about 3 shots and then let the barrel cool, and this has given me good consistent groups. In the field, I will reload once on a dirty barrel. I carry a possibles bag with patches, alcohol, bullets, powder, measure, and a small can with various tools for emergency work if needed. It only weighs a pound or two.

Hello monk d,
Just curious, have you experimented at the range to determine where the shot hits at 75 yds when you reload on a dirty barrel as you might do on a second shot in the field?
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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 17th 2014, 5:34 pm

I'll add a couple of things you can try. I recently tried this option in my APEX using my 45 cal ML barrel with BH209.  I had the barrel clean & dry & fired 3 primers. I then loaded the first charge & took my shot. Right on at 100 yards. I then fired 3 more shots from the fouled barrel & they all had the same POI. I am waiting to try this in m new MR & will report on that when I do.

Next, I have been told that if you like to hunt with a BH209 fouled barrel once you've sighted it in, use a patch lightly misted with Isopropyl alcohol (90% or higher) Bh209 is not corrosive but the b product of combustion can attract moisture & cause light rust. The 90% + alcohol will neutralize this action. I have not tried this yet. It came from a Knight staffer for what it's worth

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monk d



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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 17th 2014, 5:42 pm

Alpha8D,
As a matter of fact I have. My current hunting load is a 260 REAL bullet and 70 gr of fffg. The first shot from a rest (clean and cold) hits in the black of a 4 inch bull. The second shot from a dirty barrel strings up just a tad maybe an inch, maybe slight to the right or left, but frankly, it seems to be in the same neighborhood as when I clean between shots.

Now my groups are not touching normally, and they run a couple of inches, but when I just reload and shoot, each shot after number 2 starts going up in a line. My theory on that is that the barrel is so fouled that the bullet is super tight in the bore, and maybe this causes more pressure and all the benefit of the powder explosion is realized.

Problem is after about 5 or 6 shots I can't even get the bullet down the barrel, I have had to pull bullets that I got down just part way. Anyway, that is my personal experience.

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Alpha8D



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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 17th 2014, 5:58 pm

Greg,
I like the sound of your method. I will certainly try that when I get my BH 209. 

I wonder if it would also work without snapping the 3 primers on the clean barrel. If so then we really would be hunting with a clean barrel and also be able to rely on a convenient field loaded second shot. That would be having our cake and eating it too!

Thanks.
Alpha8D
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Alpha8D



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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 17th 2014, 6:08 pm

monk d, 
I would have to agree with your theory on tighter fit gives more pressure, better burn and higher velocity.
I like it that you did your homework and know what your rifle is going to do in the field. It must have taken some patience to get it zeroed at 75 yds with the clean barrel.
Sounds like a great solution for your Hawken and that inch difference in shot #2 or even 2" with #3 wouldn't bother me a bit for deer hunting.
Thanks,
Alpha8D
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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 17th 2014, 6:32 pm

well I've been shooting muzzle loaders for over 20 years now, always percussion guns and am on my second Hawken, but, I should say that when I start out I do fire 2 caps in the clean barrel before I load the first time, kind of like what GregK says, mainly just to ensure that the barrel is good and dry and the channel is clear when I load her up the first time, even when I go hunting. Funny I carry a pair of ear muffs with me and fire the two caps in my truck (windows rolled up) when I get to the woods so I don't make any noise before I go in. Be advised though, make darn sure you have ear muff/plugs in your ears because a cap going off in a closed up truck can blow your ear drums.

And yes, my gun is NEVER loaded when I leave the house, so I will not shoot a hole in the floor board of my truck... affraid

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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 17th 2014, 7:11 pm

@Alpha8D wrote:
Greg,
I like the sound of your method. I will certainly try that when I get my BH 209. 

I wonder if it would also work without snapping the 3 primers on the clean barrel. If so then we really would be hunting with a clean barrel and also be able to rely on a convenient field loaded second shot. That would be having our cake and eating it too!

Thanks.
Alpha8D
For your sake I hope that it does, but I have not had one inline with Bh209 ever have the same POI from clean to dirty without at least the three cap fouling

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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 17th 2014, 7:20 pm

@monk d wrote:
well I've been shooting muzzle loaders for over 20 years now, always percussion guns and am on my second Hawken, but, I should say that when I start out I do fire 2 caps in the clean barrel before I load the first time, kind of like what GregK says, mainly just to ensure that the barrel is good and dry and the channel is clear when I load her up the first time, even when I go hunting. Funny I carry a pair of ear muffs with me and fire the two caps in my truck (windows rolled up) when I get to the woods so I don't make any noise before I go in. Be advised though, make darn sure you have ear muff/plugs in your ears because a cap going off in a closed up truck can blow your ear drums.

And yes, my gun is NEVER loaded when I leave the house, so I will not shoot a hole in the floor board of my truck... affraid


monk d,
Yup, I guess I wasn't thinking, of course it makes perfect sense to fire a couple caps on a sidelock gun.

Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 22nd 2014, 12:36 pm

For my Accura V2 it seems first shot on a clean barrel in about 1-2" low left @ 75 yards. The get closer the next few shots.  ML season opens in a few weeks, and I'll verify this again in freezing conditions.
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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 22nd 2014, 5:10 pm

Yesterday I experimented with this idea at the range and it looks like "Clean barrel & pop 3 primers" the results were amazing. Dead on @ 25, 50 100yds, then once things got fouled up accuracy went down hill fast.
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PostSubject: Re: Getting range accuracy to the field, ie, first shot and how to be sure it's where you zeroed at the range?   November 22nd 2014, 6:23 pm

cheers cheers

My V2 and MR will shoot bulls eyes from 25 out to 130 yards every time with a dirty barrel. With a clean barrel the first shot is always 2 to 3"s high left. 
At the range I always pop off 2 or 3 caps and now they are ready good to go. For the hunting season I always go to the range the Saturday before the season opens and I leave the barrel dirty. I clean the breech plug only. I use Black Horn 209 so I don't have to worry about rust.

Ray............ :rtup
Black horn is expensive but the accuracy and consistency is second to none and there's NO SWABBING the barrel until your done shooting for the day. My rifle  was dirty for 8 days and yesterday I shot a spike buck and had no problems.

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