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 ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...

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conner
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PostSubject: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   May 20th 2016, 4:53 pm

As most of you know, once we get started on a new project we can get in trouble. 


Man this GRRW Collectors Association has gotten out of hand at my lodge folks. A simple idea becomes a work in process, now the former employees of GRRW are back under one tent building GRRW firearms. Then it's build another website for this idea, answering concerns from interested parties and putting together customers with GRRW.CA gunsmiths. Don't get me wrong, this has been fun making ideas come to life, like those mentioned.

My problem is I'm always trying to improve on whatever I'm involved with whether it's firearms, primitive camps, or drag race cars. My wife just looks at me and says "What next ???". Hell I don't know, which ever the way the wind is blowing, I'm ready.


The GRRW.CA venture has me going nuts; just purchased a new toy for this project, check it out.


H.E. LEMAN PERCUSSION .50 CAL. FULL STOCK TRADE RIFLE WITH OLD RED BUTTERMILK PAINT STOCK 

CIRCA 1840. 60” o/a with 44” octagon deeply rifled .50 caliber unsigned barrel. Trade gun quality with nickel silver engraved forend and toe plates typical of Henry Leman rifles from Lancaster, Pa. Unsigned original lock with scroll engraving. Engraved brass round patchbox with floral finial which is distinctly Henry Leman as well. See von Damm’s THE FUR TRADE, A HISTORY OF ARMS AND TRADE GOODS, pp. 116-117 for identical mounts on a signed rifle. Double set triggers. Walnut stock with old red buttermilk painted finish and an openwork pewter forend cap crudely engraved with the initials “M F”. Very good overall with all the original patina on the metal and the stock with much of the old paint. Large bore “trade quality” rifle with a lovely untouched look. Many of these Leman rifles went west during the California 1849 Gold Rush.












According to the shop owner (have dealt with before) this is about a 70% NRA very good condition, untouched rifle. This is what I was looking for to be used as reference for the GRRW Collector Association's Lemna Indian Trade Rifle we are building. Once I have this one in hand, I'll take more pictures for you guys.

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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 6th 2016, 12:42 pm

Conner
the forearm plate?.........drill bit run out or saddle wear?

Doug

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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 6th 2016, 12:50 pm

I like the extra plate. Gives it some bling. 

I can't quite make out what the engraving on the patch box is...

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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 7th 2016, 6:59 am

lighthorseman wrote:
Conner
the forearm plate?.........drill bit run out or saddle wear?

Doug

I'm told by a family member (lady that sold the gun to my dealer who I contacted through him) told me that this Leman was a handed-me-down. The forearm plate was believed to have been installed because of saddle wear in the later years of its use before being set in a closet (retired). This rifle made its way from Chester County Pennsylvania (next door to Lancaster County where Leman had his factory) all the way to Wallace Kansas during the westward movement period where the family settled. The previous owner couldn't believe there would be any interest in this old gun. She's in a home and probably bored, so she writing down everything she knows or can remember about this rifle (she is going to contact another family member to get additional information). So more will be added to this rifle's history when received. I was asked if I would be interested in the purse that came with this rifle that another family member has. I told her Yes I'm interested. 
I'm guessing it's the shooting bag (hunting pouch)?  affraid She was going to have her niece contact me. I'm sitting with my fingers crossed that this find may have some extras like tools for the rifle or ???   tongue

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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 7th 2016, 9:35 am

Awesome find! 

The forearm plate reminds me of a full stock Hawken built for Bobby Archibald by one of the GGRW builders. The ram rod drill ran out through the bottom and the first contacted Bobby about it and he agreed to let thrm install a steel plate. I may be mistaken but as I recall, this was the first flintlock full stock Hawken yhat GGRW built. The stock was such a beautiful piece that is why they chose to install the plate....I handled the rifle snd I have to say, yhe plate really upped the coolness factor.

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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 7th 2016, 10:50 am

lighthorseman wrote:
Awesome find! 

The forearm plate reminds me of a full stock Hawken built for Bobby Archibald by one of the GGRW builders. The ram rod drill ran out through the bottom and the first contacted Bobby about it and he agreed to let thrm install a steel plate. I may be mistaken but as I recall, this was the first flintlock full stock Hawken yhat GGRW built. The stock was such a beautiful piece that is why they chose to install the plate....I handled the rifle snd I have to say, yhe plate really upped the coolness factor.

 The first built GRRW flintlock was done in 1973 by Greg Roberts while still living in Nederland CO, just before moving to Roosevelt. When the gun was completed he call his hunting buddy Rod Sweeney to come and get the rifle in Nederland that weekend. Rod said he visited with Greg's family for several hours before Greg got home from Roosevelt. This is the GRRW flintlock seen on the Internet with Roberts shooting it, that rifle still belong to the original owner in Northern Colorado.

 The original owner of Hawken (half stock) #004 and myself were at my store when Sweeney came bye heading for home with his new toy. We talked him into letting us shoot the gun after he took the first shot. There's a inlay on the top flat that reads "Death Wish", we will always remember shooting that rifle. Several GRRW Collectors have tried to buy that gun, but both were turn down as it will go to a family member when Rod is gone.

 I'll get back to you on when Bobby Archibald gun was built and who built the gun, I have access to the original GRRW Record Books..

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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 7th 2016, 11:35 am

dang it Conner!...........at least I got it in the right decade.......best if I try not to quote anything from my "steel trap like memory" affraid I'd love to know the particulars on Bobby's gun. I really liked the guy and always appreciated it when he was "hone on leave" from his Alaskan Merchant Marine duties.......made a awesome blackberry cobbler at Brown's Hole one year.
Here's my GRRW Indian Rifle I built from a kit in 78/79.......pretty sure I got that right. Laughing


I wish I would have ordered the patch box but I was still pretty green and inletting it was scary for me. Having the historical knowledge I now have, I would have gone with an earlier era rifle. ...i.e. 1830's

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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 7th 2016, 1:52 pm

lighthorseman wrote:
dang it Conner!...........at least I got it in the right decade.......best if I try not to quote anything from my "steel trap like memory" affraid I'd love to know the particulars on Bobby's gun.

I should have that information today once Carl Walker comes in from his garage sale. If it was recorded he'll have it, some builders didn't sign the book other than just putting down the serial number.

Here's my GRRW Indian Rifle I built from a kit in 78/79.......pretty sure I got that right. Laughing


I wish I would have ordered the patch box but I was still pretty green and inletting it was scary for me. Having the historical knowledge I now have, I would have gone with an earlier era rifle. ...i.e. 1830's

I have had several GRRW rifles (Hawken & Lemans) along with a North West gun that "Blue Jacket" Sander made while at GRRW (sold that one to Charlton Heston's son at the making of the Mountain Men in Jackson Hole). Now wish I had kept that one.

Always liked the Leman guns being earlier start dates than the Hawken boys guns from St. Louis. Have always carried two rifles usually a Leman (rifle) and a NW trade gun for that second shot.

You did a nice job on your gun, its just right the way she looks, a fine lady.



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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 7th 2016, 2:24 pm

Thanks....coming from you I take that as a real compliment! Very Happy It is one of my most prized possessions.

My friend Lloyd Moler said he met you once.......he knows a bunch of the GRRW guys including Neal, Carney and Ron Paul.

I have been blessed to know the folks I have and to have the gun I own.

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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 7th 2016, 6:07 pm

conner wrote:

Here's the information on Bobby Archibald GGRW Hawken rifle.

GRRW Record Book Entry:
Customer: Robert Archibald,
Location: Santa Barbara CA,
Firearm: Hawken Full Stock Flintlock Rifle,
Ordered: Nov. 1974,
Delivered: Oct. 1976,
Builder: Ed Trump,
Serial Number: #H001.
Notes: customer told there is a 24 month waiting period, agreed too.

Your memory hasn't let you down yet, I stand corrected Sir.  Isn't this neat to get that kind of information 40 years later.


The Hawken Full Stock Flintlock Rifle that I mentioned owned by Sweeney was built by Greg Roberts in Mar. 1973 and reviewed by Muzzle Blasts and Buckskin Report in Spring 1974, probably where Bob Archibald heard about this model?

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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 7th 2016, 6:33 pm

Whew......I'm only loosing part of my mind.. headslap ........I saw the gun at Bobby's brother -in-law's (Gary Hertzog) house in Steamboat. Gary kept it for Bobby while he was at sea. Gary was a little guy who was a tunnel rat in Nam.....worked at the resort on avalanche control. He built guns in his spare time as well, building sorta of a big bore Southern Mountain rifle he called a "Reever". He had mounted a hand-crank operated drill press mounted to the wall on his back porch that he did all his drilling on.....see mental exercises!:scucks

That era was really the "Golden Age" of gun building as it pertains to fur trade reproductions....lots of folks doing gun building specific to Hawken rifles, trade rifles and smoothies....etc.
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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 7th 2016, 6:47 pm

Impressed. A lot.

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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 8th 2016, 7:25 am

In the early years there was always something going on, gun building, shoots, hunts and so on. Now the interest has slowed down - less activity than the 70's - 80's - 90's, sad. I will start a new post showing a few reason why the old buckskinning sport has slowed down.  Join in ....

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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 8th 2016, 8:51 am

lighthorseman wrote:
Whew......I'm only loosing part of my mind.. headslap  ........I saw the gun at Bobby's brother -in-law's (Gary Hertzog) house in Steamboat. Gary kept it for Bobby while he was at sea. Gary was a little guy who was a tunnel rat in Nam.....worked at the resort on avalanche control.

I remember talking to Gary Hertzog (spelled his name wrong and he straightened me out, funny). Talked to him about getting the guys around Steamboat Springs together and come to the Colorado State Muzzleloading Shoot put on by the CSMLA at Leadville Co. Can't remember 1f he joined the Colorado State Muzzle Loading Association? Man was that a long time ago, if I knew I would live this long I would have taken better care of myself.   Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 8th 2016, 10:01 am

Gary acted like a Hillbilly but when he got a little alcohol in him he would suddenly break out quoting Byron and Tennyson...apparently being a English Lit major before Viet Nam.......he was a great guy and helped me greatly with my gun building. Several of us were on a muzzleloading hunt on Rabbit Ears pass.......no body was seeing much...well the guys with deer tags were seeing elk and the guys with elk tags were seeing deer....anyway we heard a shot from back in the direction of camp. When we got back to camp, Gary was there and asked "where's it hanging?"............he said "right over there on that tree".....I looked and there was a pine squirrel's hide tacked to the tree.....apparently this was the same squirrel that chewed a chunk out of Gary's hat and the critter had to die! I chastised Gary that he blew an entire hind quarter off and wasted a terrible amount of meat.

Did you know the McDowells as well? Kendall and Judy?

If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd lived a bit harder! Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 9th 2016, 7:04 am

lighthorseman wrote:
Gary acted like a Hillbilly but when he got a little alcohol in him he would suddenly break out quoting Byron and Tennyson...

At a state shoot in Leadville I heard him do that, most just blew him off as being drunk.

Did you know the McDowells as well? Kendall and Judy?

I knew both of them, they wrote some interesting articles.

If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd lived a bit harder! Laughing

I did that, now I'm paying for it with old injuries that keep reminding me what a dumb shit I was ....  Rolling Eyes


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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   June 9th 2016, 8:43 am

Ha....yes well, most my injuries and current aches and pains were caused by someone else, so I don't get to take too much credit for it.

Kendall MacDowell took me on two different antelope hunts. Judy made me a quilled hat band that I still wear though most of the quills have fallen off and a "parafletch" ????? Judy always had a couple of buffalo hides on stretchers in the front yard.


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PostSubject: Re: ORIGINAL LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ...   July 17th 2016, 11:12 am

lighthorseman wrote:
Ha....yes well, most my injuries and current aches and pains were caused by someone else, so I don't get to take too much credit for it.

Kendall MacDowell took me on two different antelope hunts. Judy made me a quilled hat band that I still wear though most of the quills have fallen off and a "parafletch" ????? Judy always had a couple of buffalo hides on stretchers in the front yard.


I am really felling my injuries from my youth to a few years ago from crashes at drag strip from PA to CO. Damn twin engine bikes to blown gassers were my down fall. Hell when a chute doesn't open and you go through the net at the end of a strip it gets exciting. If I had to do it all over again, the answer is YES. Hell you became a 'hero' to the crowd, they loved seeing a fast bike or rail take a nose dive....

A few years ago I had one heck of a sale, period books, clothing, guns, anything to do with muzzle-loading, antiques guns, even many modern firearms. At the time I was really hurting from the above mentioned crashes, think I was getting ready to die. Truly I had the mind set, then the wife got worst with her MS and I had to stop feeling sorry for myself.

Within a month after getting my head out of my you know where I was buying old and reproduction guns I had always liked. Have a friend that have built websites for that owns "Longhunter Leather Company" in IN. He was upset when I started selling my wares and now happy to see me back, he sent a great shootin' pouch to say "Welcome Back Buck". Another old friend did the same with a buffalo powder horn when he hear I was doing better.

Warning: The bottom line is check your medication at least once a year, go to the drug suppliers and ask if their products will work with your other meds. My medications were causing my personal conditions to get worst, once corrected I'm fine. Please do this for yourself and your love ones guys.

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