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 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.

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Mebits



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PostSubject: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   December 18th 2016, 1:47 pm

So, this morning, a friend was driving for me, and out pops a pretty little doe at about 50 yards. I line up on her shoulder, squeeze the trigger, and hear "pop!" No fire.

I was afraid more deer were coming so I reseated the bullet and powder and replaced the primer. Sure enough, a buck walks out at about 100 yds. I put my sight on his shoulder and pulled the trigger and... NOTHING. Just click. No pop. I saw another buck pop out immediately, re cocked and tried again, and only got a click again. I unloaded and reloaded and tried different primers and still couldn't get ignition, even after two more tries with my primers, though I did end up popping my bullet out the muzzle. I did check my flash channel and it looked pretty clear. FINALLY, I had the bright idea to fire a couple primers down my barrel. Then I reloaded, and was able to get a trouble-free ignition.

This has never happened to me before and it's most disturbing. I'd like to get to the bottom of it and hopefully never have it happen again.

Here's the details.

I'm shooting a Traditions Pursuit Ultralight, loaded with 110gr BH209, and using Fiocchi primers and a 260 sabotted Harvester.

Here's what I THINK I did wrong. 5 days ago, I was hunting and it was really nasty, with freezing rain and sleet. The dewpoint was the temperature all morning. At one point, it was raining enough that I pulled out a latex glove and put it over the muzzle. I knocked off without seeing any deer came home, and brought my gun in with me. I did NOT unload it. Then, last night, I pushed the load out from breech to muzzle, and then immediately reloaded with a fresh sabot and powder. I did NOT fire a couple primers down the barrel because I had already done that on Monday and hadn't cleaned the gun yet.

To make matters worse, it was very warm yesterday, and very wet in the evening, but the temperature fell to the upper 20's this morning.

So, what what do you experts think happened? I THINK I got moisture in the barrel on Monday and in letting it sit, I left moist BH209 at the bottom of the barrel. I may have gotten some moisture inside the breech plug too, either directly or condensation. I think the solution is to immediately push the load out after a wet hunt, run a patch through, and either clean the gun or, if hunting just a few days later, just fire a couple primers down to make sure it's dry. Thoughts?

M
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falcon

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   December 18th 2016, 6:20 pm

So the 209 primer did not fire?
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   December 18th 2016, 6:27 pm

First time, it did, but no ignition. Second time it didn't seem to. Which is weird.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   December 18th 2016, 6:35 pm

if 209 didn't fire you have some other issue going on, did you look at primer to see if it fired should be able to tell...definitely need to unload and clean after a wet or very damp day though.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   December 19th 2016, 9:30 am

I personally would use a better primer setup like the CCI M or Winchester W209. Run a 1/8" drill bit down that flash channel as well and clean it out good.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   December 19th 2016, 9:51 am

FG, I thought Fiocchi's were good. This is the first problem I've had with them (still on the last 20 from my first box). Also, I had only fired one shot and a couple primers since my last flash channel cleaning. I figured I was good until the next cleaning, at least.

Is it possible that the moisture messed with the primers too? Maybe leaking into the flash channel? Or possibly condensation?

I'm actually thinking that I may have accidentally gotten MORE moisture into the barrel by putting the latex glove over it. Water may have run down the barrel, gotten into the glove and then rolled in when I slung the gun. Then possibly made worse by condensation when I came in from 32 degrees into a 70 degree kitchen?

M
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   December 19th 2016, 9:55 am

highly possible that condensation got into it. I just don't trust the fiocchi primers near as much as a w209 and especially a cci 209 m.

You could try an experiment and clean the gun fully and put it outside the same way you had it, bring it in and then fire it and see if it does it again. That will give you some clues where the issue could be coming from.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   December 19th 2016, 10:15 am

Fire a couple primers before loading.
Keep that barrel dry during the hunt.
Don't wait "until enough rain falls" to cover the muzzle. That muzzle should have been covered when the rain started.

I only hunt in light rains, not medium nor heavy rains. Plus every time I'm out there in the rain, I'll fire my weapon after the hunt. In situations like yours, I'll fire after the morning hunt - then again after the evening hunt.

The two hottest primers are Federal 209A and CCI-M(ag)
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   December 19th 2016, 10:25 am

I should have emptied that breech immediately, no matter what, and then swabbed it. Then, per usual, shot the primers prior to reloading. I was thinking that the sabot would keep the moisture out. I'm now thinking that an anal approach is best... unless I LIKE clicking at deer rather than actually shooting them! LOL

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   December 19th 2016, 11:43 am

mebits
I hunted in moist Michigan / Great Lakes region type-weather in 2015 and twice encountered hangfires with Blackhorn 209 and the hottest Federal 209A primers in both my T/C Omega and Knight Vision, both with sealed ignition systems.

I switched to my Goex FFF this season and that powder fires instantly / every time for me.  The good thing about Blackhorn is-it will dry-out and not affect it's future performance. So if you ever face damp Blackhorn again, don't discard it. It's reusable once it dries - so save the dried out powder for a future range day.

Me?..... I'm back to real blackpowder 100% of the time again. Quit the Pyrodex, 777 and American Pioneer scene years ago. Had issues with all (3).
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   December 20th 2016, 8:34 am

I've had a couple misfires over the years myself with BH209 and I have always attributed it to "forgetting to fire a couple primers down the barrel before loading" and heading in the woods.  I place a lot of importance on that step now.  I started with CCI Mag primers which was a recommendation from the forum.  I bought a brick of them so I haven't tried other brands.  Also, I never bring the muzzleloader in from the cold while hunting.  I leave in the truck so it stays cold, no sweating.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   December 20th 2016, 8:48 am

I think he only brought it-in to unload it Joe.

Signed... Joe Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   December 20th 2016, 9:38 am

I think I've been very fortunate up to now. It's always been fairly dry when I've been hunting, and not that cold.

Thanks guys. Next year will be better. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   October 22nd 2017, 9:55 am

Update.

I have shot the gun several times since the misfire incident and thought things were okeydokey.

I was out yesterday and had a hangfire. I shot 3 primers through it the night before and loaded it the morning of the hunt. It was a foggy morning, but we were generally above dewpoint (my scope never fogged or took on any moisture.

The hangfire was embarassing. I think the big doe I shot at laughed at me. The primer went "pop" not crack, then I had a fizzzing, then a gentle "pop!" with a little spark and lots of smoke. Seemed like it took a long time, but maybe just a 1-3 seconds.

When I fired those three primers, the last one gave a little blowback (I felt it on my arm). I thought maybe I had a dirty flash channel. I cleaned with a drill bit and I ran a pipe cleaner thingy through the flash hole. All were pretty darned clean. Hardly any carbon.

I test fired the gun after the hangfire and it went off just fine.

I just test fired 3 primers. The first two went crack but the third was a bit muffled and, perhaps unsurprisingly, had some blowback. I pulled it and looked at it and while the other two were nearly pristine, the third was pretty black.

The intermittent nature of this issue suggests to me that I got a bad batch of fiocchi primers. First step, I guess is a run to Field and Stream to hopefully find some CCI primers or W209. Any other thoughts?

M
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   October 22nd 2017, 10:39 am

If you get the CCI primers, which is what I use, make sure they are the "Magnum" shotshell primers.  I don't know which primers are considered the best or hottest so I'm no help there.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   October 22nd 2017, 12:17 pm

Bought the last W209 from F&S. Just tried one. Crisp and clean. So far, so good. Going out in two hours.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   October 22nd 2017, 4:16 pm

I use Fedeal mag primers, never an issue!
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   October 23rd 2017, 6:12 am

do what frontier gander says, the hottest primer you can find. also review his post on a vent hole about 1/32 diam into the combustion chamber. also enlarge the fire channel as suggested above. with all three you will never have a miss fire again.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   November 14th 2017, 4:22 pm

Ugh! I hesitate to share this, but I don't want anyone to make the same mistake.

So, I was out this morning and deer were everywhere. I could smell them, and hear them all around me. Eventually, a doe stepped out at 100 yds or so, and slowly presented me a shot, which I took.... FZZZZZT! Hangfire!!!! The deer turns and walks off. Not again! I reloaded wondering what happened, but kept sitting quietly. Sure enough, another deer comes out, presents a shot and "Pop!" Misfire! Short story long, four deer and 5 misfires later, here I am. What the actual eff happened?!?!?

Bad BH209? Not likely. Bad primers? Maybe but we changed those to Win.

Here's what happened. First not long ago, right before I had my first hangfire, I cleaned the breech plug. It seemed pretty clean. Next, I've only fired the gun a handful of times this year, so in my head, I was thinking it the bp couldn't be that dirty.

So, I'm thinking that when I last cleaned the bp, there was some particularly hard carbon that didn't release with my cursory drill-bitting. Also, while I haven't fired the gun much, I HAVE shot a bunch of primers through it, what with testing the old primers, working on the seal, and going on hunts (where I've pushed the load out rather than firing. I think I may have shot 30 primers through that thing. Maybe more. What I do know is that when I cleaned that thing, it was totally occluded. I couldn't get the bit into the flash channel at all. I almost couldn't get a torch tip cleaner into the vent hole.

So, I think that a dirtier than I thought BP caused my problem with the weaker Fiocchi's and then eventually got bad enough to screw with my W209 primers.

So, learn from my 5 unmolested deer this year. Clean your breech plug carefully and really inspect it regularly if you're shooting BH209. Be mindful of hard carbon and remember that like a drain, once partially clogged it's much easier to fully clog it. Here's the link to the Breech Plug cleaning instructions.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/breech-plug-cleaning/

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   November 14th 2017, 4:54 pm

Glad you found the problem!

I'm curious....you can smell deer at 100 yards?  That's a pretty good smeller you got there.  Very Happy

Better luck next time!

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   November 14th 2017, 5:51 pm

@Smokin' Joe wrote:
Glad you found the problem!

I'm curious....you can smell deer at 100 yards?  That's a pretty good smeller you got there.  Very Happy

Better luck next time!

I have no idea how far away the deer that I smelled were. There was some thick stuff around me. I think I CAN smell deer in the rut at 100 yards, with the right wind and humidity, but I think these deer were much closer. And I think there were a lot of them.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   November 14th 2017, 6:00 pm

Most anyone with an unclogged nose can smell rutting bucks (except smokers). The bucks stink.

I smelled a boar hog this morning when I was going through a palmetto patch. I backed out of there - PRONTO. My rifle wouldn't have done me much good since I couldn't see more than 2 feet in front of me.

I have "smelled up" gut shot deer during bow season when the wind was right. One had bled out completely and cutting its throat didn't do anything except make it squirm more. A .22 short in the brain did the trick.

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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   November 14th 2017, 9:07 pm

"Sometimes what we do isn't pretty, but all in all, it is beautiful."

--Me
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   November 15th 2017, 6:41 am

use cci primers. inlarge your flash hole slightly. put a nine mm pistol case full of 3f black under the 209 powder. you will never ever have a missfire again. some inlines are fussy, mine isnt. yours is. if you do what i wrote, you will get your deer, when you see it. a shooter needs to know the gun will go off ever time, thats a given.
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PostSubject: Re: 3 Deer. 3 Misfires. With BH209! Question.   November 15th 2017, 7:58 am

If i were having that much trouble with a powder i would stop using the stuff. 

A friend of mine is a fine hunter who used Pyrodex  for 25 years.  Last year he switched to BH 209 and a misfire cost him an elk.   This year he's back to Pyrodex.
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