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 Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...

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conner
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PostSubject: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   May 30th 2017, 2:15 pm

SUBJECT: Here's a little history lesson for you guys. Do you know when our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns and who wrote the contract (clue: he was "U.S. Superintendent of Indian Trade" [now referred to as "Indian Affairs"] ?

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PostSubject: Re: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   May 30th 2017, 3:19 pm

William Clark?

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PostSubject: Re: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   May 30th 2017, 4:33 pm

Close lighthorse,

In 1812 John Mason, the first U.S. Superintendent of Indian Trade, asked Henry Deringer of Philadelphia Pennsylvania to make the first American Northwest gun. The Office of Indian Trade needed the Northwest guns to be used as gifts during the War of 1812.  The United States had always purchased Northwest guns from English manufacturers up to this point, before the War of 1812, wartime embargos forced Mason to find another source for these guns. Deringer and the Office of Indian Trade (Mason) worked the duration of the war developing a Northwest gun that was acceptable by American Indian allies. Deringer was well known for his single shot pistols, flintlock common rifles of 1814 and 1817 and his box-lock percussion pistols. But probably the Northwest gun first produced in 1807 is the least written about of his manufacturing skills. In 1807 this firm produced more muzzle loading rifles under government contracts than any other company involved in the Indian trade.


After the end of the war, the British production was sent to the Department of Indian Trade in Canada, to be given to Indian allies as gifts for their war service. The Board of Ordnance produced almost 9,000 trade guns in 1815 to be given as parting gifts to Indian allies that they were leaving to the Americans. (Bailey, 1985a:13).

Additional marking for the 1816 guns are a “P” and “K” proof and inspection mark on the left flat of the barrel. The “K” mark is thought to be an inspector’s mark that resulted from Mason’s increased scrutiny of Deringer’s firearms following a number of complaints from factors of the rifle deliveries of 1814. If this is true the inspector’s mark is unusual for arms developed for the Indian trade. In later years Deringer prided himself that his arms showed no inspected marks by the government. Government inspectors simply accepted Deringer’s signed affidavit warranting that he had privately proofed his barrels and inspected the guns himself. The “K” mark is not found on Deringer’s 1844 Northwest guns. (Nevius, 1996:13) - (Engages, 1967:6). 

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PostSubject: Re: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   May 30th 2017, 4:38 pm

Embarassed 



Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   May 31st 2017, 11:12 am

lighthorseman wrote:
Embarassed 


Very Happy
 
You use what you have but be informed for the next purchase and things that need to be considered is why I spoke up guys. These writers will tell you anything that may sell a product. There was one of these gentlemen that wrote the Black Powder section for Guns and Ammo that did this all the time. You could tell be the tone of the article if he got to keep what he was writing about or had to return the firearm.

I have hunted with a smoothbore since the late 60's with a GRRW Trade Gun that Greg Roberts and Phil "Blue Jacket" Sanders built as a pro-model at GRRW. That gun had about a 2 inch drop and it was really hard to get down on the barrel flat or a rear sight with that small drop. The only way you could shoot it was really lean into it and then pay for doing so with a sore cheek. I have had guns by Curly G., Danny Caywood, custom built and alway had a problem with long arms, short LOP and drop of stock.

When Doc White decided we should offer NW Guns again with GRRW.CA we did our research and after measuring 15-16 originals only two fit what we wanted. 

Barnett and Wilson seems to be what most copy (they have the old issues). We found Wheeler and Leman NW Guns with 14.250 inch LOP not the 13.210 inches of others. These guns had a 3.110 inch drop not the 2.120 inches of the Barnett and Wilson guns. We have tried a gun with these measurements and you can get down on the barrel flat or a rear sight very comfortable and don't get the old sore cheek.

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PostSubject: Re: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   May 31st 2017, 7:09 pm

conner wrote:
When Doc White decided we should offer NW Guns again with GRRW.CA we did our research and after measuring 15-16 originals only two fit what we wanted. 

Barnett and Wilson seems to be what most copy (they have the old issues). We found Wheeler and Leman NW Guns with 14.250 inch LOP not the 13.210 inches of others. These guns had a 3.110 inch drop not the 2.120 inches of the Barnett and Wilson guns. We have tried a gun with these measurements and you can get down on the barrel flat or a rear sight very comfortable and don't get the old sore cheek.

Pure music to my ears! As well as my gangly arms and my prominent cheek bones. Very Happy

One more thing worth pointing out. Ron Paull told me he is being very specific about barrel thickness and taper.  I've been talking to him about a "chief's" version in 58 caliber (24 caliber). He said original GRRW barrel specs called for a barrel built specifically around the 58 caliber/24gauge rather than a 62 caliber/20 gauge barrel with only a 58 caliber hole, which results in a much heavier barrel.  He forecast that "my" trade gun would come in at a little under 6#.  That's when my ears really perked up!
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PostSubject: Re: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   May 31st 2017, 8:37 pm

BrownBear wrote:
conner wrote:
When Doc White decided we should offer NW Guns again with GRRW.CA we did our research and after measuring 15-16 originals only two fit what we wanted. 

Barnett and Wilson seems to be what most copy (they have the old issues). We found Wheeler and Leman NW Guns with 14.250 inch LOP not the 13.210 inches of others. These guns had a 3.110 inch drop not the 2.120 inches of the Barnett and Wilson guns. We have tried a gun with these measurements and you can get down on the barrel flat or a rear sight very comfortable and don't get the old sore cheek.

Pure music to my ears! As well as my gangly arms and my prominent cheek bones. Very Happy

One more thing worth pointing out. Ron Paull told me he is being very specific about barrel thickness and taper.  I've been talking to him about a "chief's" version in 58 caliber (24 caliber). He said original GRRW barrel specs called for a barrel built specifically around the 58 caliber/24gauge rather than a 62 caliber/20 gauge barrel with only a 58 caliber hole, which results in a much heavier barrel.  He forecast that "my" trade gun would come in at a little under 6#.  That's when my ears really perked up!

I have mentioned between my father and myself we have owned a couple dozen NW and Chief Grade NW guns. NOT ONE went over 5.3 lbs no matter what the caliber was. All of them had very light weight barrels and scaled to the gauge. I have put in years at the Museum of the Fur Trade (Hanson was like my grandfather) and museums around the country with Curly G. (another grandfather - they both took me under their wing) with one quest in mind - NW Trade Guns (mostly English or American who sold to Hudson's Bay Company is what we looked at, not the cheap Belgium or Spanish makers that sold to the North West Company). We have NW and Chief NW barrels custom made (about a six month waiting period as he builds one barrel at a time). Right now we have (5) barrels ordered: .30 gauge (.50 Cal.) - copied off an original I have, couple .24 gauge (.54 calibers), and a couple .20 gauge (.62 caliber) barrels in the works. 

Two of these barrels go to Ron for his clients, the other two to Doc - one for me and another client. We are getting request about these firearms all the time. If your thinking about one of these, get your barrel ordered.  PM me and I'll give you the process and then you and Ron can talk about what you want and be sure to tell him these barrels are copied from originals (light, correct gauges and varied lengths).

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PostSubject: Re: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   May 31st 2017, 9:37 pm

NW Trade Guns have always been a very comfortable hunting tool, half or less the weight of other guns owned over the years. My ex. wife and a few of her girl friends would get excited when they heard another buffalo hunt was being put together. That meant husbands were going to be saving for a hunt, taking time off from family and always the unknown if there would be an accident. We would all go through all the baloney of why we shouldn't plan on going, it fell on deaf ears ....

When the wife saw the trade guns being cleaned and readied for another hunt she got real stiff around there until we were ready to leave. We would have to promise we would call every night, wanting to know we were fine.

Here's a couple of pictures of bulls going under feeling the power of a .24 gauge or .20 gauge ball with 80 grains of 3FFF.  These two animals were hardier to keep down than most I have taken.






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PostSubject: Re: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   June 1st 2017, 7:39 am

Nice... 

Love the pics with the story.

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PostSubject: Re: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   June 3rd 2017, 3:59 pm

Kentucky Colonel wrote:
Nice... 

Love the pics with the story.

I use to eat and sleep buffalo hunting, being camped on 23 sections of the Kansas prairie with friends and having trouble sleeping until day light. Then we ate a fast meal, coffee and we were off looking for the herd. I think on one hunt we walked for 3-4 miles before locating a small herb of 25-30 animals. You forgot the hike once you saw animals, then it was keep low and get as close as possible for the best shot. I dream about doing this every once in a while, good times.

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PostSubject: Re: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   June 3rd 2017, 5:51 pm

Wow. 

I grew up reading about buffalo and buffalo hunts. I never actually went. 
It is a bucket list item. I confess that the expense is so high that it kinda 
leaches some of the fun out of it. 

I learned I could hunt buffalo on a ranch here in Florida. That surprised me. 
It would cost $3,500. Shocked

Plus, in my mind, a buffalo hunt needs to take place in the cold. I wanna camp and a 
fire when I do it with a couple of agreeable old timers to tell tales and keep me on course. 
Geez, that sounds good. It will probably need to wait until I retire.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

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PostSubject: Re: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   June 3rd 2017, 7:53 pm

Kentucky Colonel wrote:
I grew up reading about buffalo and buffalo hunts. I never actually went. It is a bucket list item. I confess that the expense is so high that it kinda leaches some of the fun out of it. 

I learned I could hunt buffalo on a ranch here in Florida. That surprised me. It would cost $3,500. Shocked

Plus, in my mind, a buffalo hunt needs to take place in the cold. I wanna camp and a fire when I do it with a couple of agreeable old timers to tell tales and keep me on course. Geez, that sounds good. It will probably need to wait until I retire.

When I first started going to a gentleman's ranch south of Goodland KS in the mid 70's a 1,400 lb. bull in January would cost you approx. $2 per pound live weight = $2,800, figure you yield 700 lb. of meat.
 
   $1,400 meat (700 lb.)
   $   500 raw winter hide
   $     75 raw skull
   $   500 un-rendered lard
   $   100 raw bones – crafters
   $     70 (2) raw coyote hides (average kill off gut pile)
   $2,645 value on your $2,800 investment
 
A client figured this out for his $2,800 investment.

Today you can figures $3,500 - $3,800 live weight and everything else has raised too - so your looking at the same or similar ratio for the investment. The experience, stories and pictures are not added in and are priceless.

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PostSubject: Re: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   June 3rd 2017, 8:55 pm

What interesting figures... Does give one something to think about... Hmm...

I wonder if I could get a restaurant or gourmet foods shop to buy the bulk of the meat and lard
to underwrite the adventure... 

I'd definitely need to go north for a "winter hide" and I never thought about the coyotes. 

Interesting...fun...

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PostSubject: Re: Our first government contract was written for NW Trade Guns...   June 4th 2017, 7:13 am

Kentucky Colonel wrote:
What interesting figures... Does give one something to think about... Hmm...

I wonder if I could get a restaurant or gourmet foods shop to buy the bulk of the meat and lard
to underwrite the adventure... 

I'd definitely need to go north for a "winter hide" and I never thought about the coyotes. 

Interesting...fun...
 
KC and others, I;ll start another topic - about this whole process of this subject. Give me a few minutes.

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