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Bear Claw
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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 1:01 pm

BigCountry wrote:
Roger that !!!!! i will look into all that once i get everything else arranged. i can see where casting urslef can save you a lil money

The biggest problem is finding a cheap source of good lead. If you can find that you'll save a bunch.

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 1:12 pm

can u use tire weights ? i have never cast lead before just a thought .
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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 1:22 pm

You can, but it's not pure lead and will be harder.

I've read the stick on weights are pure lead. If that's true it will be a good source.

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 1:28 pm

How much of a balance do you want 50/50 or 60/40 . Soft and hard combined
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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 1:40 pm

Personally, I want 100% pure soft lead.

I don't speak for anybody else.

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 2:28 pm

Bear Claw wrote:
I like flintlocks and will probably buy another one someday. Nothing against anybody using one.

I just question the motives for owning one.

Several of our eastern states are "Flintlock Only Seasons" a special primitive season, like what Colorado use to be like when a dozen of us set the rules (they held that season until the manufactures like Remington, Ruger and a few others paid off the DOW to let them add in-lines in a primitive hunting season). The state muzzle loading association lobbied for the old primitive season to be brought back but money talks and we all know how piss poor the membership of the CSMLA is, always has been since it started and always will be. Lots of talkers but no doers Pete. Not bragging I was there in the beginning in the mid/late 60's and fought the wars with the DOW until 1990. Our jobs were not paid positions. The guys that I stood shoulder to shoulder with (many have passed on) and those left can only remember we gave it a 110% for a lost cause. 

We just couldn't see the trees for the forest, when you have 50,000 - 75,000 plus apply for permits and have to wait for years while you gather points. Then an outfitter with deep pockets has clients from out of state apply and draw before the ink is dry ($$$$) there's a problem). This is happening all across this land, I hear from old friends that were involved with their state associations around the country from time to time, same old story.

Pennsylvania has one of the strongest associations and run several muzzleloading seasons, one for primitive (flintlock only). Colorado screwed up and should have followed their lead. That's the facts Pete like it or not.

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 2:41 pm

BigCountry wrote:
can u use tire weights ? i have never cast lead before just a thought .
 You can use it as long as its patched, but it is so hard it keeps its shape (round shape). Our club did many tests with wheel weights and adding different ratios of solder, range lead and pure lead - just doesn't work very well.

A friend cast some conical bullets for my 40/70 2-1/10 Sharps to do some testing on expansion, a waste of time. I shot several game animals (large and small) and had bad results, the bullets never expanded they kept their shape and just punched a hole.

Make a nice sound on steel gongs ...  tongue

Probably fine as long as they have been poured with the same heat, no voids, weigh the same (this is the hard one with the crappy material used for wheel weights) some metals separate leaving voids causing weigh differences.

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 2:46 pm

Bear Claw wrote:
You can, but it's not pure lead and will be harder.

I've read the stick on weights are pure lead. If that's true it will be a good source.
 
Check old scrap yards (they buy different metals) your looking for battery lead (nasty smelling when melted) or the very best is lead sheet that phone cables were wrapped in. Every once in a while I run across it and grab what they have. Have always kept in touch with phone guys I use to work with, in farming communities they always remember where this stuff is laying in a cable yard.

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 2:53 pm

Oh boy, you're going to hate what I say now.

 It's true that Pennsylvania has a flintlock season and I applaud them for the effort. Unfortunately, they caved in worse than Colorado. It started with a PRB, but now with the new rules you can use a sabot. A sabot in a flintlock? Even in Colorado we can't use sabots.

 I understand what you went through with the DOW in Colorado. I used a 30-30 to hunt in Colorado until 1980 when I switched to muzzleloaders. Ever since then and every year since then i've talked to the DOW about starting a primitive season.  It's hopeless and the really sad part is they think they have a primitive season now.

 However, it doesn't really matter when it comes right down to it. We can make our hunts as primitive as we want. Even when we get laughed at for doing it. It doesn't matter.

 However, no matter how difficult we make it for ourselves. It's no reason to brag about it. Especially, if that's the only reason you're doing it.

 It's our choice to hunt the way we do and it should be done to bring pleasure to us and for no other reason. Nobody is better than anybody else. No matter how much you think so.

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 3:35 pm

I have relations that hunt and live in Pennsylvania, have hunted with flintlocks for over 50 years on their properties 1,500 plus acres all private and access to that and several other farms of similar size, everything is posted and always will be. That's the way they like it.

I have bought more drinks at DOW meetings that even you could drink Pete. Didn't do anything other than gain a few more available permits for deer or elk the following season. Their big complaint was "it cost us money to field officers for special seasons". When asked about the amount of funds collected for a "special season" they walk away from you. There's always an excuse why they can't do something. At one time we submitted a plan for approval of a simple test to quality a hunter for a special season (muzzle loading). At least it got their attention and they voted on it. We had muzzle loading clubs on the western slope, down south, up north and out east willing to provide the free service of testing (no cost to DOW). They were afraid of the accidents, even though we had insurance through NRA.  No win win situation.

There's a group that I hunt with in Northern Colorado in the January (late season) a high power rifle season. We all hunt with flintlock rifles in period clothing and use the least amount of orange to meet the regulations. Not bragging, we just enjoy each other and what we like doing, hunting with flintlocks. This is where you had better know what your doing with the weather conditions, snow to your waist and keeping your powder dry in the barrel and the pan. Moisture, wind and just keeping your bearings is always a challenge.

High power guys ask "was that you guys over there" (half mile away or down the slope in the downed timber). The usual answer is "that was us, why? ". "Are you using old rifles, do they shoot". "One guy asked "why would you guys do that", the usual reply is "because we go where the game is and don't sit in a warm truck with a spotting scope complaining about no game animals".  That was the end of that communication and that's the way we like it.

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 3:49 pm

We're a dying breed, but who cares? I could care squat what anybody else thinks. I get called a snob all the time for just using dry flies, bamboo rods, and silk lines when fly fishing. I ignore them. I do it because it brings me the most pleasure.

I'm the only one I have to please. The same with fish caught, range reports, and hunting kills. It's for me. I feel no need to take pictures of them.

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 5:53 pm

conner wrote:
I shoot both, but always go back to my flintlock for these reasons. Just more challenging and bragging rights are at the top of the camp fire talk. Its always fun to brag about some of the shots made when hunting, and some of the issues experienced with weather conditions (wind, rain, snow, hot, cold) each can do strange things at the most unexpected time. Once you learn to shoot a flintlock you'll find your a better shot when using an in-line, or a cartridge gun and the reason for this is you have learned to follow through with each shot.

Many shooters think about the break of the trigger as the last step of shooting, since it comes at the end of all the preparation you undergo before taking a shot. The shooter has gotten into position, adjusted his sites, has a round ball seated, calmed his breathing, and so on. The point is that there’s actually a lot going on after the trigger breaks and, in order to shoot accurately, proper follow-through is absolutely required. Follow-through is to not disturb the rifle in any way during the time between the trigger break and the ball exiting the muzzle. 

Practice, there are (2) things you can do to develop good follow-through. First is to keep pressure on the trigger after the shot, holding it in its most rearward position in a deliberate manner. Letting your finger bounce forward is a common mistake, but with a bit of effort this is easy to correct. Second skill is hardier. You want to keep your eyes focused on the target with a laser-like intensity and try not to blink.
 
1). The first benefit is that it forces you to keep your head on the stock where it belongs. A common mistake rifle shooters make is to lift their head from the stock to get a better look at the target. This reaction is so automatic in some shooters that it’s funny to observe. Don’t do it.  
2). Try to not blink, many feel blinking is done so you will become more adept at calling your shots. Assuming you’re set up on the rifle correctly (so that it recoils straight back and stays aligned with the target), you will be able see hits and misses at closer ranges. (Spotting hits on targets farther away is easier since it takes longer for the ball to get there, giving you more time to reacquire the target with your sights.)  Just some thoughts that good shooters try and adjust too.

Agree with 99% but just one thing:

"
You want to keep your eyes focused on the target"

Your vision should be FOCUSED ON THE FRONT SIGHT!! :suhlute :tup2
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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 6:16 pm

Here in Mississippi where i live our state has done awway with making you use a muzzleloader. You can use a single shot breech loading rifle with a straight walled cartridge. However some management area set there own rulles. They still make u pack the powder they are hunts by draw only. The draws only last 10 days. Adter that no gun hunting period on those lands you have to use a bow only.
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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 7:25 pm

At a National Rendezvous in Leadville CO in 1981 I was still fighting the muzzle loading season wars, we're in a 22' tipi. It was packed and several of us were being asked questions on how the Colorado State Muzzle Loading Association saw the future of the sport with the DOW. We are just making suggestions and I mention Pennsylvania had a "flintlock only season".  

Within 10 minutes a group outside was ready to hang me from a lodge pole for mentioning this. Everyone inside tried to explain this was just a discussion not a consideration, that was a touchy moment until they realized what we were talking about.  Just one person ease dropping got this crap started. 

In those early years I was very lucky to have good friends to watch by back (several old bikers that would rather fight than f... ) not really, funny now but not then.

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 7:27 pm

Bear Claw wrote:
We're a dying breed, but who cares? I could care squat what anybody else thinks. I get called a snob all the time for just using dry flies, bamboo rods, and silk lines when fly fishing. I ignore them. I do it because it brings me the most pleasure.

You care Pete or you wouldn't be here watching our backs.  :Grace

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 1st 2017, 7:53 pm

Sure, I care about some things, but what others think of me isn't one of them.

Not counting friends of course.

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 2nd 2017, 7:06 am

Bear Claw wrote:
Sure, I care about some things, but what others think of me isn't one of them.

Not counting friends of course.

Pete at this point in our lives we are all or close to your comment.

I use to be active in the AMM, NAF, NRA, PRA and the NMRA along with several others (officer positions). Worked 10 hours a day 5-6 days a week then off with meeting or hunting. I would get 5-6 hours sleep then up and running. Maybe that's why I have been married three times in 50 some years ....  Rolling Eyes  Shocked   boys will be boys Dunno  t up

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 2nd 2017, 7:14 am

One marriage was enough for me. It lasted 7 years. It wasn't bad, but when it ended I decided it would be better if I stayed single. 

I love women, but not full time.

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    June 2nd 2017, 7:23 am

Bear Claw wrote:
One marriage was enough for me. It lasted 7 years. It wasn't bad, but when it ended I decided it would be better if I stayed single. 

I love women, but not full time.

I should have followed your advise, these ladies and state laws work together and the guy pays big time.  Must be a slow learner ...  Deadhorse $$$

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    Yesterday at 11:49 am

BigCountry wrote:
can u use tire weights ? i have never cast lead before just a thought .
BigCountry
 Sorry to hop in here so late in the conversation. I'm just throwin' in my $.02.  Wheel weights (mostly these days) are cast from Lead (Pb) and Antimony (Sb). Antimony, Atomic number 51, was, a long time ago, called Lead, but it wasn't. One of the many uses for Antimony, is mixing it with lead and using it in Antimony Plates for lead acid car batteries. It's an ore that resembles lead and is used as a "filler" in lead to stretch it, kinda' like the old Gold miners did, when they added sand to their Nugget bags to increase it's weight. Antimony is much harder and less Melt friendly than lead, plus it doesn't congeal well when it cools, leaving air pockets in whatever it's smelted with. A lot of manufacturers cast it along with Pot Metal to give their products a "heavier" feel (We all know that heavier is better)  Wink
 I was very fortunate to have picked up about 60 pounds of 100% pure lead in 5 pound ingots from my last job. We used them to adjust the corner tracking weight on my grandson's go-kart back when he raced back in 2002. Now they just lay in my barn? At least I think they're still there? I haven't looked in 15 years, so who knows? I use one on my work bench as a weight to hold my leather down when I tool. Hope I didn't step on any toes with my comments?
As for my absence from the forum. I just got a new computer and decided to come back to it. Truth is...I just missed you guys. Wink  There's no other forums on the Internet for a weirdo like me. Very Happy
God bless:
Stoney

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    Yesterday at 12:26 pm

stoney1 wrote:
Quote :
There's no other forums on the Internet for a weirdo like me. Very Happy
God bless:
Stoney

Amen ... headslap   cowyboy hatoff   Dunno

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    Yesterday at 2:43 pm

Getting back to the subject.
I have both percussion and flintlock but vastly prefer the flintlocks. Currently there are seven. Three rifles, three smoothbores, and one pistol.
There is some validity to the claim that cap guns are more weather proof. But, that by no means implies that caplocks are as weather proof as a brass shucker or that flintlocks only work in good weather. There are a number of things, bees wax on the pan, lock cover, etc. that can make flinters more weather resistant.
Something often heard about flintlocks is that there is a learning curve. If the rifle (or smooth bore) has a GOOD lock this statement is largely hogwash. With a good lock and proper loading procedures there is no noticeable difference between shooting a flintlock and shooting a percussion. The key word here is good. A rifle from TVM is going to have lock that cost more than one fifth the cost of an entire Traditions Mountain Rifle. It is also going to have a lot nicer stock, better barrel, and better trigger. There is a reason beyond being hand built that custom rifles cost so much.
If you don't want to spend a lot of money then it is probably better to stick with percussion. However, if you want to invest in a rifle that will something to truly be proud of, get a good flintlock from a good builder. You won't be sorry.
Oh, and to the guy who made the remark about shooting an outdated rifle, or something to that effect anyway, I thought that was the whole idea of shooting traditional sidelock muzzleloaders.
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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    Yesterday at 3:44 pm

Randy Johnson wrote:
Getting back to the subject.

Something often heard about flintlocks is that there is a learning curve. If the rifle (or smooth bore) has a GOOD lock this statement is largely hogwash. 

How long have you been shooting black powder or any cartridge firearm Mr. Johnson to make such a remark?

Having taught and shot in State and National Competition since 1955 (tried out for 1987 Muzzleloading Olympics). There is a learning curve no matter what the firearm is. There is more flinching with a new flintlock shooter over a percussion shooter - which can be a problem that will require serious work to correct that we all know.

A rifle from TVM is going to have lock that cost more than one fifth the cost of an entire Traditions Mountain Rifle. It is also going to have a lot nicer stock, better barrel, and better trigger. There is a reason beyond being hand built that custom rifles cost so much.

1). TVM is a semi custom builder. I've know and handled these rifles years before Jack Gardner's son-in-law brought the firm. Biggest problem in the past is someone hogged out the lock and barrel channel areas which had to be glass bedded to correct problem before selling.
2). They used whatever lock they could find was another complaint.
3). The wood would run from soft to hard at times which Freddie Harris said was what the supplier sent him before he shaped them for TVM.
4). Barrels and triggers weren't anything special.
*   Jack wasn't paying attention to what was being done under his business name.

Tennessee Valley Manufacturing was started by Jack Garner in 1975.  He worked for Dixie Gun Works for years. Jack had built a reputation the old-fashioned way, through hard work and attention to quality.  He finally wore down over the years and passed on the business.


If you don't want to spend a lot of money then it is probably better to stick with percussion. However, if you want to invest in a rifle that will something to truly be proud of, get a good flintlock from a good builder.

This is not correct, if you look at the cost of good locks there's a small margin in costs. As far as being proud of your purchase, everyone see's each item differently. I have bought and sold both ignition system weapons of excellent quality - percussion or flintlocks seem to rival each other in pricing.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    Yesterday at 5:00 pm

Well, with dates involved you have to be a lot older than me so you have an advantage there. I'm only in my 49th year of shooting muzzleloaders, forty-third year of flintlocks, with eight or so years before that shooting modern guns. If you are flinching with ANY gun, be it a flintlock or a M-16, you are doing it wrong. Properly done, pressure is applied to the trigger only when the sights are on target. The discharge should be a complete surprise, and, if done properly, the projectile is on its way before there is an opportunity to flinch. Once you train yourself to do this it will not make any difference what you are shooting. I got that advice from the late Max Vickery whose creditials exceeded even yours. 
I have no doubt that a high speed camera and lots of fancy testing toys will show some microsecond difference between the ignition time of a good flintlock and a good percussion lock. But the guy standing behind the butt plate will never notice it. With the exception of one of the old Jap made smoothbore pistols that sold for twenty bucks back in the sixties and early seventies I have never owned a mass produced flintlock. I have heard that some of them have kind of iffy locks. An unreliable lock would certainly leave a shooter or observer with the impression that flintlocks are generally unreliable and that percussion guns are a better choice. But a rifle with a good flintlock can regularly beat any percussion gun out there. At one time I could do it. I know several who still can.
Jack Garner, as you have noted, is no longer connected with TVM. I have owned two rifles that the current owner built. One, a .50, was sold when I bought my Ken Moors rifle. The other, a .36, will probably be leaving soon to offset the cost of the .32 Kibler rifle. But neither one was a disappointment. The locks were both well made and functioning Silers, good triggers, and good to excellent wood. And they both could fetch what they were sent after.
Finally, any lock with a spring strong enough to make the cap fire will make a percussion lock fire. Think CVA Bobcat. The same is not true for flintlocks. If they were still making them, you could buy two Bobcats for what a good flintlock LOCK will cost. With change left over. The OP was wavering between a Traditions product and a TVM product. If buying a percussion, the reliability of either company would be equal. If buying a flintlock TVM almost certainly has the edge.
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PostSubject: Re: Percussion vs Flintlock    Today at 5:48 am

I really like TVM rifles . i dont live but a couple hours from where they are built. I am panning a trip there in October to look at there rifle choices and styles. So far i like the late lancaster and and southern rifles.  I as of now dont have a preference btw percussion and flintlock. i bought a Traditions mountain rifle few months back. It is a solid rifle and is extremely accurate. For the money you cant beat what your getting. But i tend to like custom built rifles (THAT WAY I CAN GET IT THE WAY I WANT IT) Which ever TVM  rifle i choose it will not have over a 36inbarrel.
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