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 Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave

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Old and grumpy

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PostSubject: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 2nd 2017, 10:03 pm

Here we go again. Found a Navy Arms  2 Band Enfield rifle .58 cal for $199. Outside looks good,action is smooth, Bore was not cleaned after last firing. I'm not eager to get one -- but you know how that works.

What do you think of the price?


Last edited by Old and grumpy on July 17th 2017, 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JLBSparks



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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 3rd 2017, 8:52 pm

How long since it was last shot? Makes a BIG difference.

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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 4th 2017, 7:26 am

Quote :
What do you think of the price?

The price is great, assuming the bore is not trashed.
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 4th 2017, 5:36 pm

I have one of those that I found in a Pawn Shop. The barrel was filthy, but the $250 price was tempting. At home, I cleaned the heck out of the barrel and bore and the bore came up shiny and new-looking. The external surfaces of the gun looked new. To me, the price of the one you are looking at, $199, is well worth the gamble.
Ron

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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 5th 2017, 2:12 pm

Thanks for the info. I don't know how long it has been dirty. 

Might just role the dice on this. Been kicking myself for missing that half built Juker Kentucky.

If nothing else clean it up polish the bore and re sell it.
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 6th 2017, 4:13 pm

I did it. This is my first BP long gun, Everything else are pistols.

Turns out the crud in the bore is mostly dust and spiders from being kept under a bed for years. The shop guy swabbed it and the patch came out almost clean.
The shop owner got it new 30? years ago. Fired it some but not a lot and hunted with it. It looks like it has been in the field but taken care of.

Now I need to find video of how to break it all the way down. Start with a total clean and lube.
------
Now for ammo. I only want to buy one mold. What would be the most accurate? Minie, Improved Minie, R.E.A.L, or Maxi Ball? Patched round? I will not be hunting with it.

For powder I have been told 60gr of 2F. What would be best.
-----
So this is the new girl dust and all. Didn't even wipe her down yet. She is too dang long for just one picture!
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 6th 2017, 4:17 pm

Keep it real and use a minie.

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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 6th 2017, 9:18 pm

I cleaned the bore and dropped a thin flashlight down. The bore is very good. Don't see any pits.

50" long, 9? lbs, made in 1973 by Antonio Zoli. Now I need the bayonet!
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 9th 2017, 9:58 pm

OK. Now I need help. I know very little about Civil War Muskets.

In the shop they told me this was a 1858 2 band Enfield.

Looking on line it is more like a 1863 Remington "Zouave". The sights, Eagle on the lock, and trigger guard look like the Rem. I will try to get a good full length photo of it.

These are labeled "Zouave" on line.Mine looks like this. They are not mine. Mine are up top.
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 10th 2017, 10:36 am

Zouave Enfields did not have an eagle on it.   I just bought a Cook and Brothers musket and am getting various size weight and diameter of minie balls just bought the .577and was kinda disappointed at how they arrived 2-3 had really dented bases that i think rendered them unusable .  Going to order some .575 minie again from Track of the Wolf.
The Zouave reproductions are supposed to be of high quality .  From what I've read a starting load should be around 50 gr of FFG because you don't want to to badly distort the base of the Minie and work up from there.  The supposed standard load from the Civil War was 60 gr of FFG .
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 10th 2017, 11:27 am

Thanks.  This is fun. Lots to learn. I had blood on both sides.

I think it's a Rem 1863. The bands are held in place by a spring latch the Enfield has a screw.
I ordered a mold from TOW. They have become my go to. It's a lee Original Minie,.575  500gr. Are the .577 more accurate?

For lube I saw one video where the guy filled the base with lube. That doesn't sound right. The melted lube would retard the burn.
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 10th 2017, 11:31 am

@Old and grumpy wrote:
For lube I saw one video where the guy filled the base with lube. That doesn't sound right. The melted lube would retard the burn.

Not really if the ignition starts at the bottom of the powder column. I tried putting a card between the powder and lube, and neither I nor the chronograph could spot a lick of difference. On the up side, adding the lube sure softened the fouling and made loading easier.
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Clyde



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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 10th 2017, 1:00 pm

As far as the bullet diameter each rifle is a world of its own thats why I am getting both I would think I want to be .002-.003 under the bore so they load easy but fit the bore tight upon firing for max accuracy.  I use SPG lube from tow and I put some in the base to help protect the base from distorting upon firing.
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 26th 2017, 8:33 pm

So the "Enfield" morphed in to a Rem 1863 "Zouave" reproduction.

Went to the range and made smoke! Was too hot to stay long at 100 but fired 15 rounds. First 10 off the berm just to see what it would do then the last 5 on paper at 75 yards. Considering that my brain was baked from working all day in that heat and I was not trying too hard the target was OK for a first go.

Balls&Lube--- I got a Lee 500gr Minie ball mold. They come out at 519gr. Lubed with SPG they are snug but seat easy. Do I need to fill the base with lube? I did it like Track of the Wolf said but it takes a LOT . The heat didn't help - messy. Based on what other guys have said I think I may skip filling the base with lube.

Powder-- I'm going to need a BIGGER flask! Loaded 60gr of 2f Goex. Nice cloud of smoke and the recoil was light. The fact that it weighs almost 10 pounds helps with that. I cut the charge to 50gr thinking I would run out. How light can I go and still be safe and have the ball leave the bore and get to the target? Is it safe to use 3f if I can't find 2f?

Caps-- It came with 2 nipples . One for musket caps and the other for #11. Both worked fine. Thought the #11s might be weak but were not. I tapped the side to get powder to the nipple like in my Kentucky pistol.

Sights-- It shoots high using the short sight. I was expecting that. I think the short one is for100 yards. Any idea what the other 2 were set for? Next time I will set up on the long range. I goes to 220 yards.

This is my first time with a BP long gun. Going to be fun.

If you have any tips or tricks I would like to know them.

Thanks O&G.
-----------

As for the base being distorted with heavier charges could that be overcome by using harder lead? If it can distort the skirt it should still be able to seat the ball in the rifling.
--------

Seating the ball--- There are 2 spots in the bore where the ball hangs up just a little. Cant see any pits.
Next time I will mark the rod then polish those spots extra. Watching video of people loading this looks common.
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Clyde



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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 27th 2017, 4:56 pm

I just fired about 20 50 cal minie balls in my CVA Missouri sidelock now they were 503 and snug but oh boy did they shoot at 60 yds so much so i want to try them at 75-100.  

You want some skirt distortion or flair that fills and seals the bore but to hot a load causes blow-by where the gases leaks around the edge I used 75 gr FFg Olde Enysford but I think I could go that hot because the 50 is a thicker bullet that 58 skirt is really thin in comparison.

There is a .577 Minie that does have a thicker skirt I bought some of those too.
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   June 30th 2017, 9:58 pm

Got out for the first good range day with it. The temp went down to 80.

With the base of the balls full of lube they turned it into the first gun I ever had that suffered from Boogers! Big Black Boogers hanging off the muzzle. No more lube in the base. Swabbed every few and it was fine.

Started with 60gr 2ff Goex off the 217 yard berm to warm up. Ran it up to 80gr-- that hurt. Settled at 50gr-- very nice. Then I fired back to back 80gr black and 80gr Pyrodex Select RS 2ff. The Pyrodex was very light recoil compaired to the Goex.
---
For targets I brought it in to 50 yards. With the exception of one flyer that broke the frame it was OK. It shot 6" high.

Then I went to 100yards. I was thrilled! I am old and should use glasses but don't. I will call the 3 wide one warm up. The center just kept getting better and better.

Good day.
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jeager106



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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   July 19th 2017, 7:40 am

http://www.gunbroker.com/Item/660600215


I have this one coming.
Just bought it by pictures and description on the site.
I have lots of Holy black and have boolets coming from Track of the Wolf.
Musket caps are/were available at Wally World.
I have a couple hundred stashed.
Pro'ly don't need anymore.
I think it would be tits to take a deer with it this fall.
Thinking of 40 grains of Goex 2 fg to start with then go to my precious supply
of Swiss 2 f g.
Thoughts on 40 grains for a starter load then to 60 for a max charge?
Shots at deer on my place seldom exceed 60 yards.
Last fall I bagged an 8 point on day one with my Marlin 1895 45-70 at about 40 paces.
Bang, flop!
Gotta love the 45-70.
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   July 19th 2017, 7:44 am

@Old and Grumpy.
I'm old and grumpy also.
Glad to grump with ya. Very Happy
Your targets at 50 & 100 look plenty deer worthy to me.
I'm downright anal about accuracy but sometimes good 'nuff is good 'nuff.

That big phatt boolet makes a big azzed hole through and through.

I'm getting soft in my old age and joined PETA.

People Eating Tasty Animals.

Snowflakes suck!
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jeager106



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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   July 19th 2017, 7:47 am

HA! And for that price I'd have jumped all over it.
The one I have coming I paid $250 for and that was a good deal.
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   July 19th 2017, 2:22 pm

That is nice. Now for the bore ,the big question. Don't know about hunting with it. 40gr might be light. Must have a clean kill. http://www.goexpowder.com/load-chart.html  Take this data and enter it in the top part of this computer to get muzzle energy-- "punch".   https://www.billstclair.com/energy.html
40gr  Might just knock them out or piss it off!

80gr hurt,60 is supposed to be standard , went to 50gr to save powder. I have been polishing the bore and next trip the targets should be better. The variable is my old eyes and nerves.

Check the patch box. Mine had a second  #11 nipple screwed in a factory made hole in it. #11 was hot enough to do just fine. In the cold or damp you might want the musket cap.
--------------
The fun stuff--
A new one $1080-  http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/long-guns/blackpowder-rifles/civil-war-reproduction-muskets.html
Bayonets!  The one from Dixie looks better.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/438/1/BAYONET-ZOUAVE
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=965_968&products_id=3909

Also from TOW.  Need to road test it.

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jeager106



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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   July 22nd 2017, 11:20 pm

Cook and Brother web site says twist rate is 1:48 just for your information.
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   July 23rd 2017, 10:59 am

A Tale of Two Minie's---




I picked up a second mold for the Zouave.

The first was the Lee Original Minie. .575 at 500gr. It loaded easy and gave me good targets at 100yards.
The second is the Lee Improved Minie. .578 at 478gr. Being thicker it loaded snug about like a patched ball but easy enough. It should have engaged the rifling better. Don't know why they call it "Improved" At the same 100 yards not one out of the five even hit the 20" frame!

Off the back wall at 250 yards I picked a small bush as a target. The original fell in a vertical line above and below the mark with little side to side difference.

The "Improved" was WILD. Wide by 6'-8'. All had the same load.

#1 is the Original at 100yards.Last 5 in the nine ring.
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Last edited by Old and grumpy on August 27th 2017, 6:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   August 27th 2017, 6:00 pm

---

90% done. This has been fun. Still need to touch up a few scratches in the blueing and trim the butt plate at the toe. The finish is 3 coats of Tru-Oil rubbed out with 0000 steel wool then "Loved" with old flannel . When it's all done it will get another coat of oil.

Did a lot of work on the bore. Most of the marks are gone.   From what I read Zoli made some of the better bores back in the day. Before polishing, once I found the range and paper I put the last 5 in the 9 ring at 100 yards.  Should be even better now ---  if MY eyes and nerves are having a good day. Old man stuff.

Now I am thinking about selling it to fund another. I have a old Juker Kentucky that is up next. That I will keep.

 Zouave after 005.JPG (546.03 kB, 1200x900 - viewed 1 times.)

 Zouave after 004.JPG (604.29 kB, 1200x900 - viewed 1 times.)


Last edited by Old and grumpy on August 27th 2017, 6:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Navy Arms 2 Band Enfield-- turned Zouave   August 27th 2017, 6:11 pm

Before---


 Enfield 001.JPG (488.8 kB, 1200x900 - viewed 7 times.)

 Enfield 003.JPG (476.94 kB, 1200x900 - viewed 6 times.)

 Enfield 005.JPG (502.84 kB, 1200x900 - viewed 9 times.)
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