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RonC
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PostSubject: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 19th 2017, 5:23 pm

As a muzzleloader fanatic, I understand the need for a knife, whether for practical uses like patch cutting or as part of a historical outfit.

But what about these modern shooters at a modern range? It seems that the knife clipped to a front pocket with the clip intentionally prominent, or a big knife in a belt sheath is part of the current costume of the day.
Even the gun periodicals often have an article on a tacticool knife.

If you like knives, that's great. I do too. But it seems that the knife clipped to the pocket is just decoration.
I was curious, so on several occasions I went around the outdoor range I belong to and asked if the knife owners had taken a defensive knife course or something similar. None. Not one. Most were middle aged guys. I have to assume that the knives are there for show, not practical use.

I carry a knife, but as part of a multi-tool. I also know that if confronted by someone who can really use a knife, I probably would be trimmed, fileted, carved and circumcised by the time the fight was over. If my CCW firearm doesn't do its job, then my knife wouldn't save my hide.

Maybe I am missing something. Maybe I am wrong in my assumptions. What think you all?
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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 19th 2017, 5:32 pm

I never go anywhere without a folding knife in my left pocket and a mini .22 in my right pocket. Sometimes I also have a Diamondback DB9 in the right rear pocket. I use the folding knife at least 6 times/day. It is a tool not a weapon. The other articles are weapons that are almost never used.

PS: I don't depend on keys or mace as defenses. IMO they are next to useless.

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 19th 2017, 6:58 pm

There be lots of old boys like onto myself probably that use a knife daily....several times! My old Dad could be asked...."Dad...have you got your knife on you?" And the reply back would be "I've got my britches on don't I?" I've toted a knife since I was six years old.....even to school....and skinned a few squirrels with it on the way home from school because I carried my .22 rifle to school on the school bus and left it in the cloak room while class was in session so I could hunt walking home! Quite a few boys did the same thing! A knife doesn't have to be a weapon.....more often just a tool! Oft times it's difficult for folks that have grown up on concrete and asphalt, tall buildings, honking horns, gobs of people, sirens screaming and daily shootouts affraid ....to relate to us old country boys! And thank the GOOD LORD for delivering me from all that! :suhlute :suhlute

And....on the backside of all the above I NEVER go anywhere without a .380 Ruger pistol in my pocket and oft times a M1911 Colt .45 on my person! Uncle Sam taught me that the best defense is to SHOOT BACK! :suhlute
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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 19th 2017, 7:24 pm

Carrying a knife for daily use makes good sense. That is why I carry a multitool. There is one in my briefcase, one in my range bag, another in the car. The are very useful. As a kid, I carried a Schrade penknife (a large one that I still have) and it was a tool.
The knives presented in articles in the gun magazines are defense oriented rather than tools. At least that is the sense I get. And that is the type of blade seen clipped on the front pants pocket at the range.
Again, I could be wrong, but I would bet that 80% of the knives I see on the range are there for show, rather than practicality. 
I am not criticizing the choice to carry a knife, just wondering why it has become an accessory to the shooting activities. 
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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 19th 2017, 8:18 pm

My dad bought me my first knife at age 5 and gave me my first black powder revolver at age 5 (a few months apart). The knife was an "Old Timer" and the revolver an original 1849 Pocket Revolver (non matching numbers with nipples soldered shut). The knife was used daily to make tooth picks for me and my friends, the revolver was my cap gun (dad won't buy a "Roy Rogers crap gun" he called them), but would supply a tin of caps when I ran out. I have never got out of the practice of carrying both, now one of the folding knives that hold the razor blade (to lazy to sharpen) and the handgun a Sig P938. Carry both daily 7 days a week without fail, without either one I feel funny after all these years.

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 19th 2017, 8:24 pm

I carry the Leatherman Skeleton EX and I love it. Im lost without it and Ive tried to lose it sseveral times but have been lucky enough to recover it. I also go no where with out either my Shield 45 ACP or an LCRX 38 special. I even carry when I ride my bicycle. The LCRX is a great carry gun for that. Al

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 19th 2017, 8:41 pm

I think there are a few schools of thought on knives. 

I think there is the 'tactical knife' crowd that see themselves as walking combatants. 
The knife for them is primarily a bad-ass weapon. Many of these are 'posers.' Hearing them talk usually betrays them. 
The ones that aren't are not people I would like to cross.

I think there is the 'fantasy knife' crowd. They have been watching too much Lord of the Rings and other fantasy fare. 
These knives often don't even work well or even hold up. These are most often useless in the practical world. Owners 
are likely to speak Klingon.

I think there is the 'collector knife' crowd who gather knives that are never to be used. 
They wish to display them. They are gold/silver and carving covered beauties. I can never 
afford their houses.

I think there is the 'tool knife' crowd who uses a knife primarily as a practical day-to-day helpmate. 
The most trusted can be an ugly mutt of a knife that really suits the owner. These knife owners can be quite sentimental 
about their knives for a variety of reasons. Owners tend to have hidden skills.

For me, it is about Gibbs' RULE 9. Never go anywhere without a knife. They are just too useful. Often, I will carry two or even three different ones. 
My big hunting knife is not very discrete. My small pocket knife can do small things without even being seen. My neck knife is just so easy to reach. 
I feel like I am not fully dressed without a knife- even a small one will do.

Note:
I gave my niece and nephew a boyscout/girlscout pocket knife for Christmas. Neither of them are allowed to use them because of new rules. (disgusted snort) Apparently, where I see a tool, some see a only a weapon.

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 19th 2017, 10:15 pm

Good thoughts on the knife issue! I think I focus too much on the posers.

I find that I use the knife section of the multitool now and again. The socket that permits use of screwdriver bits gets used all the time. The scissors is perfect for trimming nose hairs. Laughing The pliers get frequent use and are just right for pulling teeth. Shocked I can adjust scopes and sights on my firearms with the bits carried in the sheath.

I met Clint Smith's wife when she lived and worked nearby at a gun shop. Word had it that she was quite the master of knife fighting. Although adept at the time at Aikido, boxing and Muay Thai kick boxing, I would have had second thoughts about taking her on if she had a knife in her hand. Wish I had taken her course on defensive use of a knife.

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 20th 2017, 8:27 am

Kinda funny around here, where guys spend a lot of time in the hills. Sheath knives are pretty rare except among guys who probably own over 50 knives and are looking for their next new one. It's brushy and the bloomin things hang up all the time, so guys mostly quit carrying them. Riverside fish gutting and game dressing are all done with folders. Fillet knives live in tackle boxes or wait at home to be put to work.

My everyday carry is a Leatherman on my belt and a very basic 2.5" Kershaw folding lockblade in my pocket. The Leatherman blades almost never get used, but the other tools are handy. I dressed a deer once with the Leatherman.  I say again, ONCE!!!! Took about as long to clean up the thing and get the fat out as it did to eat the deer. Razz When you learn where the little micro-sutures are in the bones you can easily split the pelvis and chest and disjoint the lower legs of a deer with that little folder, and that's good enough for me. I have a folding saw that goes in my pack for the same jobs on moose and elk hunts.

Around town most guys are more inclined to carry a gun to a knife fight.  Among the lotta folks I know, only one guy thinks he's ready for anything with a fighting knife and he displays it like a face tattoo.  He's as goofy as they come, so maybe he's onto something. Folks are pretty sure he's crazy so they give him a pretty wide berth.  Most everyone else has their shirttails hanging out or a coat hanging below their belt, and you don't really want to find out why.
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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 20th 2017, 10:19 am

My non-knife concealed carry:


A brace of 1816/1822 French cavalry pistols in .69 caliber. Shocked Very Happy Converted from flintlock.
Ron

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 20th 2017, 11:00 am

@Kentucky Colonel wrote:
For me, it is about Gibbs' RULE 9. Never go anywhere without a knife. They are just too useful. Often, I will carry two or even three different ones. 
My big hunting knife is not very discrete. My small pocket knife can do small things without even being seen. My neck knife is just so easy to reach. 


Over all the years of hunting I have seen all different lengths of hunting knives, its crazy how long some are. Have been asked "where's your hunting knife" I show them my hand forged knife with a walnut handle that's 8 inches total length. Has a 4 inch handle and a 4 inch slight drop point blade. The comments start about the size .........  The idiots with the longest knives have to show you their favorite weapon (they think they are Daniel Boone ready to fight a bear). Then the next smaller size guys setup and so on. Nobody carries a smaller knife like mind? When looking at the knives mentioned only a few show any signs of being used? They ask to look at my knife, it gets passed around (its liked but goes no further than that).

When asked about the signs of usage I tell them how long I have had the knife and has been used several times each of the 50 years I have owned it (cleaning game for the different seasons each of those years). Several of these guys I have hunted with and know what I said was true as I have cleaned their game along with mine (if you've got blood on your hands - why not continue the process). When I'm gone my grandson wants that little knife as he has seen it used from quail to buffalo several times.

Oh, it was built by a Amish blacksmith near Akron OH that hunted my grandfather's 1,500 acre farm each deer season for 20 years in PA. I use to help him with getting his whitetail out for several years, he gave me the knife on my 25th birthday (pretty cool then and still today I look at that knife and see Mr. Yeater). Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 20th 2017, 11:08 am

@BrownBear wrote:
I dressed a deer once with the Leatherman.  I say again, ONCE!!!! Took about as long to clean up the thing and get the fat out as it did to eat the deer. Razz
When you learn where the little micro-sutures are in the bones you can easily split the pelvis and chest and disjoint the lower legs of a deer with that little folder, and that's good enough for me. I have a folding saw that goes in my pack for the same jobs on moose and elk hunts.

That's why I use the knife mentioned as its very easy to clean without other tools in the way.

As you have mentioned Hank, we have always done this as we have some craft folks that buy anything related to animals in the bone line. You have probably seen their native America art crafts at the airports around North America - "Prairie Edge Crafts".

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 20th 2017, 11:11 am

Ron one would need to be of your mass to conceal such large side arms. Brother they would scare the crap out of these little punk turds when they saw the bore size of your guns. affraid   What a Face   Suspect

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 20th 2017, 12:04 pm

I used to be one of those guys that thought you needed a big 12" bowie to skin a deer with lol. Im back to using anything from a 4 to 6 inch blade. Nothing bigger is needed. The larger knives IMO are harder to work with.
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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 20th 2017, 12:19 pm

All that's needed....with a shaving edge:

Untitled by Sharps Man, on Flickr

I have to be careful opening this blade! I made the mistake of opening it in the kitchen last week and the glint from the blade cut all four legs off my wife's favorite chair!!
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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 20th 2017, 12:35 pm

@Sharpsman wrote:
All that's needed....with a shaving edge:

Untitled by Sharps Man, on Flickr

There it is. I dumped the belt clip cuzz it kept hanging in my pocket. But you nailed my choice in best all around.
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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 20th 2017, 1:15 pm

@FrontierGander wrote:
I used to be one of those guys that thought you needed a big 12" bowie to skin a deer with lol. Im back to using anything from a 4 to 6 inch blade. Nothing bigger is needed. The larger knives IMO are harder to work with.


Amen  cowyboy hatoff

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 24th 2017, 8:36 am

I have carried a knife daily for over 60 years and like stated above, if my pants are on I have a knife. Most have always been about 3 - 3 1/2" with the longest blade having a sharp point. The "Stockman" has a middle blade that is straight and the back side curved. It is the only blade to use when gutting an animal. After making a small incision I insert my first two fingers on left hand and place blade between them and open animal. No chance of cutting something you don't want to!

If my knives don't shave hair on my arm they are not sharp enough!

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 24th 2017, 9:15 am

As a side note, I went to the courthouse the other day to renew my passport. They make you go through a metal detector when entering. I emptied out my pockets and took off my belt and they told me my "Old Timer" knife would have to be put back into the truck before I could proceed. I asked the four deputies there how many of them carried a knife. All four (including a woman) said they did. The nice lady deputy agreed to hold the knife until I returned. 
BTW, all 4 were under 30 years of age. 

However, my metal wires holding my sternum together set off the metal detector anyway.  Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 27th 2017, 7:04 am

I have a metal rod in my lower back (may have one the whole length soon), that damn rod sets off their warning devise every time. Then we go to their little room to be checked out, they don't screw around, getting right to the exam.

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 27th 2017, 8:27 am

Guns America Specialty Publications has an article, appearing today, called "Where do edged weapons fit with CCW? Fighting with edged weapons." The author recommends knife carry as a back up. However, he is a special forces trained fighter.

On Saturday, I have to go through airport security with my new sternum wire. It will be interesting to see if it sets the alarms off. I never asked whether my sternum is wired together with stainless steel of titanium wire. Fortunately for me, I don't have any metal rods.
Ron

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 27th 2017, 7:02 pm

@RonC wrote:
On Saturday, I have to go through airport security with my new sternum wire. It will be interesting to see if it sets the alarms off. I never asked whether my sternum is wired together with stainless steel of titanium wire. Fortunately for me, I don't have any metal rods.
Ron

Good Luck

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 27th 2017, 7:44 pm

My wife has wire lace in her sternum and it's never set off the alarms, even though a small ring on a finger will do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 28th 2017, 10:08 am

For the last 40 yrs. I have always carried a NAA mini-revolver in my pocket. It holds five .22 shorts. Years ago when they first installed metal detectors at airports, I went with a friend to pick up his daughter on an arriving flight. We went through the metal detector and everything was fine. While waiting for her to come down the ramp, I put my hands in my pockets and felt the gun there. I just about panicked. I told my friend I had to leave RIGHT NOW. He thought I needed to take a dump. I was relieved when I made it back to his car without being arrested. pale

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PostSubject: Re: Knives and the Modern Shooter   July 28th 2017, 3:49 pm

@patocazador wrote:
For the last 40 yrs. I have always carried a NAA mini-revolver in my pocket. It holds five .22 shorts. Years ago when they first installed metal detectors at airports, I went with a friend to pick up his daughter on an arriving flight. We went through the metal detector and everything was fine. While waiting for her to come down the ramp, I put my hands in my pockets and felt the gun there. I just about panicked. I told my friend I had to leave RIGHT NOW. He thought I needed to take a dump. I was relieved when I made it back to his car without being arrested. pale

Becareful with this little round I know of and have seen a few that depended on this round and when using it found it did nothing more than really piss off the person they shot. Then the crap hit the fan. One officer said this guy would have been better off using the coke bottle laying on the floor, or running away.

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