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rowdyjoe

rowdyjoe

Number of posts : 127
Age : 73
Location : Arlington, TX
Registration date : 2017-05-27

PostSubject: MUCH better    July 30th 2017, 6:19 pm

Went to the range for the first time in a month or so.  My back issue is much better although not completely healed.  The two targets posted here show the results of a tighter fitting ball/patch combo.  One shows the results of .495 RB using a ticking patch and the other shows the results of a .490 RB using a Tshirt patch.  Both patch types were lubed with a water/Ballistol mix.
These targets show a vast improvement over the first batch using .490 RB and thin ticking patches. 
Both combinations fit tighter down the bore but, I think there is room for improvement.  Next trip I'll be testing the .495 RB with the thicker Tshirt patch.  If tighter is better, that should do the trick.  Smile
One issue I'm still having is blown out patches.  Not just burned ....blown out.  The entire center of every patch was blown completely out.  Not sure what's causing that but, I've read that it's not a good thing. 
Anyway, here's the targets.  Notice i didn't try to adjust the sights.  I was happy it was finally grouping.  Next time I'll give some "left" and see what happens.


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Smokin' Joe
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Smokin' Joe

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Location : Elk River, MN
Registration date : 2011-11-23

PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    July 31st 2017, 7:24 am

Hi Rowdyjoe, for those blown out patches it could be your 3F load is a little too hot for your patch material.  I would think "Tshirt" patches would be too thin and frail to hold up.  .490 round ball with .015 - .018 pillow ticking material should be just fine.  You also might want to try changing your patch lube to see if that helps.

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Joe

Semper Fi……..
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rowdyjoe

rowdyjoe

Number of posts : 127
Age : 73
Location : Arlington, TX
Registration date : 2017-05-27

PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    July 31st 2017, 11:08 am

Thanks for the reply Joe.
Funny thing about those patches ...they aren't burned/scorched, they are torn.  The bore of this old rifle is pretty rough, especially at the muzzle.  I think the roughness (rust pits) is creating more friction than the patches can handle and they are tearing apart as they exit (or maybe while loading). 
I have plans to replace the barrel but, in the mean time I may try to smooth out the rough spots by lapping. 
The ticking patches are .011" compressed and the Tshirt is .014 compressed.  I bought the ticking new from JoAnns and the Tshirt is one of my old ones.  The Tshirt could be too old to hold together but, the condition of both after firing is the same ....torn apart/hole right through the middle.  Wish I could have found one in decent condition to scan in and show the condition.  It happens with both size RBs and patch types. 
However, I think I'll make a trip to the fabric store and see if I can find tougher material.  I've read that some folks are using a tight weave denim.
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Smokin' Joe
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Smokin' Joe

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Registration date : 2011-11-23

PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    July 31st 2017, 11:50 am

Did you happen to check out Jon's "Frontier Patch Lubricants" on the index page?  He has some pretty good products that work.  His Shoot-Out product might help your rough barrel also.

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Joe

Semper Fi……..
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patocazador

patocazador

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Age : 76
Location : central Florida
Registration date : 2012-08-22

PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    July 31st 2017, 1:04 pm

Try 0000 steel wool on a jag and give it ~20 strokes, then check for smoothness. JB bore paste can do the same but it may take many more strokes.

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Bob

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." -Thomas Jefferson
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rowdyjoe

rowdyjoe

Number of posts : 127
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Location : Arlington, TX
Registration date : 2017-05-27

PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    July 31st 2017, 1:55 pm

Thanks Bob,
was thinking of using 600 grit sandpaper/emory cloth but, steel wool will work too ...and I happen to have some on hand. 

Joe,
I thought about his shoot out but, I'd like to get faster results.  The instructions for Shoot Out sounds like it takes many shots to have the desired affect.  Now thinking about using steel wool followed up by Shoot Out.  ????
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patocazador

patocazador

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Age : 76
Location : central Florida
Registration date : 2012-08-22

PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    July 31st 2017, 2:12 pm

I agree with Joe about using T-shirt patches. Too thin to hold up to much. It's OK to use thin patches but they need to be denser material (more threads per sq. inch) than used in T-shirts.

Shoot-Out is good for the final polishing but you will go through lots of cast balls to use it for the whole process on a rough, pitted barrel.

I would not recommend using sandpaper.

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Bob

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." -Thomas Jefferson
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rowdyjoe

rowdyjoe

Number of posts : 127
Age : 73
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Registration date : 2017-05-27

PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    July 31st 2017, 2:33 pm

OK Bob. 
I agree about the Tshirt material.  Though it's thicker by a couple of thousandths, it's not tough enough and it appears the pillow ticking isn't either.  I found some denim around the house that I was able to cut some consistent strips from.  I got 3 different thickness from the denim and will try them next trip to the range.  However, I'll be visiting the fabric store in the near future to acquire better denim.

I'll try the steel wool and if I don't see any improvement I may replace the barrel sooner than planned.
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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Age : 79
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PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    July 31st 2017, 9:05 pm

Try some of the products that Jon has here for sale, may improve some of your problems.

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rowdyjoe

rowdyjoe

Number of posts : 127
Age : 73
Location : Arlington, TX
Registration date : 2017-05-27

PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    July 31st 2017, 9:13 pm

I have the Anti-Rust and Patch Lube and will try it eventually but, I don't want to change too many things at once.  Working on getting the right patch now and when I get that worked out, I'll try the lube.
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Sharpsman

Sharpsman

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Location : Clear Lake, Louisiana
Registration date : 2016-02-13

PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 1st 2017, 3:56 am

@rowdyjoe wrote:
Thanks Bob,
was thinking of using 600 grit sandpaper/emory cloth but, steel wool will work too ...and I happen to have some on hand. 

Joe,
I thought about his shoot out but, I'd like to get faster results.  The instructions for Shoot Out sounds like it takes many shots to have the desired affect.  Now thinking about using steel wool followed up by Shoot Out.  ????

http://www.shootingtimes.com/gunsmithing/gunsmithing_st_lappingbarrel_200805/
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 1st 2017, 6:20 am

Go to "Bridger Bests" for patches, correct cotton weave, thickness are always what the packaging says they are. This is the easiest way do make one shot after the other the same, then its the shooter that's the issue. This is a proven fact, most materials vary in thickness (not much but they do), that's why you need to use a patch from a firm that knows yard goods.

On Ebay and at most of the suppliers on the internet.

https://www.ebay.com/b/Shooting-Patches-Black-Powder-Accessories/177903/bn_5682299



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rowdyjoe

rowdyjoe

Number of posts : 127
Age : 73
Location : Arlington, TX
Registration date : 2017-05-27

PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 1st 2017, 7:22 am

Sharpsman,
     Thanks for the link.  That's a very interesting process.  I wonder how the "sand" he uses would work with a typical "fire lap" process.  Using a ML "bullet" with wide grease rings such as the Lee REAL with the sand and grease mixed and applied to the bullet should provide similar results????
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 1st 2017, 7:33 am

@rowdyjoe wrote:
Sharpsman,
     Thanks for the link.  That's a very interesting process.  I wonder how the "sand" he uses would work with a typical "fire lap" process.  Using a ML "bullet" with wide grease rings such as the Lee REAL with the sand and grease mixed and applied to the bullet should provide similar results????

an easy way to help smooth your bore is value lapping compound, start with the coarse grit and then finish with the fine grit. Available at most auto stores and its easy to use and cheap. All you need is your cleaning rod, patches and your set. When still in the muzzleloading business we would get trade-ins once in a while with dark or rough bores and then the value compound was put to work.

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rowdyjoe

rowdyjoe

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PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 1st 2017, 8:02 am

Ah, excellent idea.  Never thought about the automotive stuff.  I may give it a try but, am beginning to wonder if the effort is worthwhile when I intend to replace the barrel.  If I can maintain the accuracy achieved in the targets posted here, I can live with it until I replace it in a couple of months. 
However, all of this is a learning experience for me so, my efforts are not wasted.
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 1st 2017, 9:25 am

@rowdyjoe wrote:
Ah, excellent idea.  Never thought about the automotive stuff.  I may give it a try but, am beginning to wonder if the effort is worthwhile when I intend to replace the barrel.  If I can maintain the accuracy achieved in the targets posted here, I can live with it until I replace it in a couple of months. 
However, all of this is a learning experience for me so, my efforts are not wasted.

Its always fun to take a sow's ear and turn into a beautiful idea.  Very Happy

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rowdyjoe

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PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 1st 2017, 9:29 am

Can't argue with that.  Smile
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 1st 2017, 9:34 am

@rowdyjoe wrote:
Can't argue with that.  Smile

The biggest issues can usually be resolved once as a group we all try and help out. This is done over and over on this blog.
Thank you folks for taking part, all ideas are worth looking at. cowyboy hatoff

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BrownBear



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PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 1st 2017, 12:11 pm

@rowdyjoe wrote:
I think the roughness (rust pits) is creating more friction than the patches can handle and they are tearing apart as they exit (or maybe while loading). 

I bet you're right on the money. Brand new Lyman barrels have very sharp rifling and crown, and they're notorious patch shredders until a couple hundred rounds are down the bore to help smooth things out, or a guy goes for a quicker solution. I've used steel wool as already described on old bores with pits and that certainly helped. For the Lyman's rifling the shortcut is to put piece of a green Scotch sratch pad over a jag and pump that up and down the bore about 50 times. For the Lyman's sharp crown, you lay a piece of 400 grit emery over the muzzle, press down on it with the ball of your thumb and rotate half a dozen times.  I describe that, just so I can tell you it won't work on a pitted bore! Razz  Gotta go with the steel wool.

As for patching material, yeah. Ticking or something tough along those lines, whether denim or canvas if the thickness is right. I've had trouble with the Balistol/water lube on rough bores, too.  The patches are much more prone to shredding. A switch to a grease-type lube (along with the tougher fabric) generally solves that. 

I have a 62 caliber rifle I picked up used at the "right" price because the bore was a sewer pipe. The rifling was still visible, but lotsa pitting. It ate patches like a paper shredder and wouldn't group 3" at 25 yards. Easy to see why the guy let it go so cheap. But I did the steel wool thing, used ticking and a little bigger ball, and TOW's mink tallow lube and now it's giving me 3" groups at 75 yards rather than 25 yards. Having nothing to do with the discussion here, it's a slow twist barrel and DEMANDS charges no less than 100 grains, and is better at 120. It's also very light. With a deep crescent butt plate.  Shocked  Eats you for lunch if you don't hold it just right for shooting, but it's too nice to carry to simply send it down the road.
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 1st 2017, 1:45 pm

I have shot lots of originals with bad bores because a 100 plus years ago the owners just used them and they very seldom cleaned a tool.  Embarassed

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rowdyjoe

rowdyjoe

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Registration date : 2017-05-27

PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 3rd 2017, 10:58 am

Brownbear,
     Thanks for the info.  
I used OO steel wool on it and it feels a bit better when running cleaning patches but, the tail will be told at the range today.  I'll be posting the results here as I will use the denim patch material I cut a couple of days ago.
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patocazador

patocazador

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Age : 76
Location : central Florida
Registration date : 2012-08-22

PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 3rd 2017, 11:03 am

00 steel wool is pretty coarse. You might want to give it several strokes with bore paste (not valve grinding paste) or 0000 steel wool to polish it a bit. Jon's Shoot Out might do the trick too.

_________________
Bob

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." -Thomas Jefferson
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 3rd 2017, 11:18 am

We have put fine value grinding compound on #0000 steel wool attached to an elect. drill and ran that up and down a little. Then went to the cleaning rod and could really see a big improvement.

This was on a T/C Hawken .50 cal. that had sat for three years uncleaned and loaded. I was worried that my counter man made a mistake on what he allowed for this piece in trade. Thank goodness we went at this like I can always buy a new barrel to correct the issue. It worked on the T/C.... t up

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rowdyjoe

rowdyjoe

Number of posts : 127
Age : 73
Location : Arlington, TX
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PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 3rd 2017, 4:50 pm

@patocazador wrote:
00 steel wool is pretty coarse. You might want to give it several strokes with bore paste (not valve grinding paste) or 0000 steel wool to polish it a bit. Jon's Shoot Out might do the trick too.


Yeah, I know.  The bore is really course too.  Smile  The range session didn't show any noticeable improvement.  This barrel will be replaced sooner rather than later. 
My "used denim" patches didn't hold up any better than the thin ticking and Tshirt material.  Holes were blown right through them however, some were seen smoking about 10yds down range.  Smile 

The .017 thick denim patches were used with a .490 RB at 50yds.  Group was nothing to write home about but, they all hit inside the 9 ring. My grandson and his friend were with me and most of the time was spent teaching /helping/supervising them.  I need to go back alone so I can focus on the task at hand.
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rowdyjoe

rowdyjoe

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Age : 73
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PostSubject: Re: MUCH better    August 4th 2017, 11:53 pm

Went back to the range today to do a more complete evaluation of the the denim patches.  Results were the same as yesterday.  All 3 thicknesses of denim were blown out.  Today's session cemented my suspicion about the roughness of the bore.  A new barrel is definitely in order.  
Thanks for the suggestions/recommendations.
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