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 Questions on lead for PRB

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msplcdyankee



Number of posts : 5
Age : 59
Location : north carolina
Registration date : 2017-08-22

PostSubject: Questions on lead for PRB   November 18th 2017, 9:57 am

Being new to black powder shooting I have a few questions I hope you all can answer:

I am shooting a TC Hawken 54 cal, TC Cherokee 36 cal and a Lyman GPR 54 cal. I have experimented with TOW Mink oil, Moose Milk and Mr Flintlocks Lube.

Patching has been 015 and 018 pillow ticking.

Lead for cast ball. Must it be pure soft lead or can range pick ups be melted, fluxed and cast into satisfactory ball for paper punching. Friends say I need as soft a lead as I can find.  I am currently shooting Hornady and Missouri Bullet purchased balls.

Groups have been good at 50 yards and working on 100 yards.
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patocazador

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Registration date : 2012-08-22

PostSubject: Re: Questions on lead for PRB   November 18th 2017, 10:59 am

If you are shooting patched round balls, the patch will protect the barrel from harder alloys. It is best to use pure lead for hunting so that the projectile has the capability of expanding.

That being said, I used to hunt exclusively with Maxi-Balls that I cast from X-ray film backings. It was not pure lead and was harder. Almost every deer I shot with those conicals went down right in their tracks. I was never able to recover one of them because they always passed through.

Sources of pure lead are lead plumbing stacks, lead roofing, stick-on wheel weights, and lead from copper-jacketed bullets. Cast centerfire bullets are alloys of lead, antimony, and tin. These are usually very hard depending on the amount of antimony.

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FrontierGander
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PostSubject: Re: Questions on lead for PRB   November 18th 2017, 11:25 am

The harder lead tends to swell a bit over time. How much? One never knows for certain.

Pure lead is best, especially for conicals.
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strong eagle



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Age : 75
Location : rushville
Registration date : 2016-10-11

PostSubject: Re: Questions on lead for PRB   November 21st 2017, 8:32 am

use pure linen tight weave meduim weight  for your patches or 100 percent pure cotton denim cloth like for blue jeans. those two materials will work very well for you home made patches or for cutting the patch off at the muzzle.
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Hylander



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PostSubject: Re: Questions on lead for PRB   November 21st 2017, 1:24 pm

@strong eagle wrote:
use pure linen tight weave meduim weight  for your patches or 100 percent pure cotton denim cloth like for blue jeans. those two materials will work very well for you home made patches or for cutting the patch off at the muzzle.

Where to get pure linen tight weave ?
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hunting savage



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Location : southern Mi
Registration date : 2014-05-03

PostSubject: Re: Questions on lead for PRB   November 21st 2017, 1:28 pm

PATCHES AN HARD CAST BALLS WILL IN TIME SCREW RIFLING UP IT HAPPENED TO BE BACK IN THE 60 WITH 2 LONG WHEEL WEIGHTS AND 3 LBS OF LEAD MELTED TOGETHER AND BACK THEN I CAST A LOT OF THEM
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FrontierGander
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PostSubject: Re: Questions on lead for PRB   November 21st 2017, 1:34 pm

Also have to take into consideration the barrel maker. Some use some really soft stuff which will certainly not stand up to heavy charges or alloys.
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: Questions on lead for PRB   November 21st 2017, 1:48 pm

@FrontierGander wrote:
Also have to take into consideration the barrel maker. Some use some really soft stuff which will certainly not stand up to heavy charges or alloys.
With shooting black powder cartridge guns and custom loads for hunting I found wheel weights are heavier but don't expand. We had a bad acting buffalo cow that the rancher wanted put down after almost destroying his stock trailer. I had some wheel weight rounds and figured I'll try them out, what a mistake. Shot her three times with no effect of being hit, switched to soft lead and she was down with one shot. When we opened her up the wheel weight kept their cast shape and punched a 1/2 inch hole on entry, small wound channel and the same size as entry on exit. The lead slug had the same entry with a large wound cavity and an exit hole of over an inch. Lesson learned on shooting wheel weight on game.

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strong eagle



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PostSubject: Re: Questions on lead for PRB   November 21st 2017, 4:04 pm

pure linen medium weight tight weave can be found at a couple of on line linen stores, i think mine come out of denver. pure cotton denim usually can be found at a large local store that sells just cloth.
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Sharpsman

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PostSubject: Re: Questions on lead for PRB   November 24th 2017, 9:45 am

Wheel weights make fine revolver/pistol bullets; no for PRB in ML!

You'll have best luck with an alloy of around 1-40 or 1-50 tin/lead!
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: Questions on lead for PRB   November 24th 2017, 10:53 am

Here's some related information that I use from time to time.

Round Ball, Bullet Making:
Lead Round Ball Bullets:
Lead, round ball, bullets are a short range projectile first used in smoothbore musket muzzle-loaded guns, once rifling was added to the bore, muzzle-loaded rifles, accuracy was realized at much greater distances. The lead round ball bullet or round-ball is one of the original muzzleloader projectiles and still the mainstay of traditional black powder shooting. In a well made muzzle-loaded rifle they can be very accurate.

Rifled Muzzleloader Barrel Compatibility:
 1 in 48" twist rifled muzzleloader barrels shoot patched roundball accurately up to about 1,800 feet per second.
 1 in 58", 60", 66" & 70" twist rifled muzzleloader barrels shoot patched roundball at higher velocities quite accurately.

Cast Lead Round Ball Bullet:
Cast, lead, round ball, bullets will have a flat spot on one end known as the sprue, this is where the lead is trimmed from the casting mold. For good accuracy the sprue end must be loaded facing forward toward the muzzle when it is loaded. The reason for loading the cast lead round-ball sprue forward is so that you have a visual on it keeping it centered in the rifles bore. If you load it with the sprue down then you can not see if it is centered in the rifles bore, which is critical for accuracy.
Swaged Lead Round Ball Bullet:
Swaged, lead, round ball, bullets are formed in a press under pressure this assures that there are no air pockets or other deformities in the ball. Swaged lead round-balls when patched properly will have quite exceptional accuracy. Lead deforms quite easily, however, Hornady makes swaged lead roundballs for muzzleloaders that do not deform quite so easily and have a very high penetration value when used on game animals such as deer.

Lead Shot:
 Muskets could also fire smaller lead balls called lead shot or bird-shot or slightly larger lead balls called buck-shot, which would have wider dispersion for harvesting wild game. Round balls could be combined with buckshot to produce buck and ball ammunition, which combined the wider dispersion area of lead shot with the higher energy mass of the round ball.
 Producing lead shot from a shot tower was patented in 1782 by William Watts of Bristol. Molten lead would be dropped from the top of the tower into water at the bottom of the tower. Like most liquids, molten lead form near-spherical shape as they fall. When the tower is high enough, the lead droplets will solidify while still dropping before entering the water below. The hardness of lead shot is controlled through adding variable amounts of tin, antimony and arsenic, forming alloys.
 
Lead Shot, Sizes, Diameter And Weight:
#12 Lead Shot = .05" Diameter, Pellet Weight = .19 Grains.
#9 Lead Shot = .08" Diameter, Pellet Weight = .75 Grains.
#8 1/2 Lead Shot = .085" Diameter, Pellet Weight = .88 Grains.
#8 Lead Shot = .09" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 1.06 Grains.
#7 1/2 Lead Shot = .095" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 1.25 Grains.
#6 Lead Shot = .11" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 1.94 Grains.
#5 Lead Shot = .12" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 2.57 Grains.
#4 Lead Shot = .13" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 3.24 Grains.
#2 Lead Shot = .15" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 5.02 Grains.
BB Lead Shot = .18" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 8.75 Grains.
#4 Lead Buckshot = .24" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 20 Grains.
#3 Lead Buckshot = .25" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 25 Grains.
#2 Lead Buckshot = .27" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 30 Grains.
#1 Lead Buckshot = .30" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 40 Grains.
#0 Lead Buckshot = .32" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 50 Grains.
#00 Lead Buckshot = .33" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 61 Grains.
#000 Lead Buckshot = .36" Diameter, Pellet Weight = 71 Grains.
 Lead Round Ball Bullet, Weights:
0.350" Diameter Lead Round Ball Weight = 64 Grains.
0.375" Diameter Lead Round Ball Weight = 79 Grains.
0.433" Diameter Lead Round Ball Weight = 122 Grains.
0.440" Diameter Lead Round Ball Weight = 128 Grains.
0.445" Diameter Lead Round Ball Weight = 132 Grains.
0.451" Diameter Lead Round Ball Weight = 138 Grains.
0.454" Diameter Lead Round Ball Weight = 141 Grains.
0.457" Diameter Lead Round Ball Weight = 143 Grains.
0.490" Diameter Lead Round Ball Weight = 177 Grains.
0.495" Diameter Lead Round Ball Weight = 182 Grains.
0.530" Diameter Lead Round Ball Weight = 224 Grains.
0.535" Diameter Lead Round Ball Weight = 230 Grains.
0.570" Diameter Lead Round Ball Weight = 278 Grains.
 
Lead Round Ball Bullet, Ballistic Coefficients:
0.350" Diameter Lead Round Ball Ballistic Coefficient = .049.
0.375" Diameter Lead Round Ball Ballistic Coefficient = .053.
0.433" Diameter Lead Round Ball Ballistic Coefficient = .061.
0.440" Diameter Lead Round Ball Ballistic Coefficient = .062.
0.445" Diameter Lead Round Ball Ballistic Coefficient = .063.
0.451" Diameter Lead Round Ball Ballistic Coefficient = .064.
0.454" Diameter Lead Round Ball Ballistic Coefficient = .064.
0.457" Diameter Lead Round Ball Ballistic Coefficient = .064.
0.490" Diameter Lead Round Ball Ballistic Coefficient = .069.
0.495" Diameter Lead Round Ball Ballistic Coefficient = .070.
0.530" Diameter Lead Round Ball Ballistic Coefficient = .075.
0.535" Diameter Lead Round Ball Ballistic Coefficient = .076.
0.570" Diameter Lead Round Ball Ballistic Coefficient = .080.
 0.350" Diameter Lead Round Ball Bullets = 109,
0.375" Diameter Lead Round Ball Bullets = 88,
0.433" Diameter Lead Round Ball Bullets = 57,
0.440" Diameter Lead Round Ball Bullets = 54,
0.445" Diameter Lead Round Ball Bullets = 53,
0.451" Diameter Lead Round Ball Bullets = 50,
0.454" Diameter Lead Round Ball Bullets = 49,
0.457" Diameter Lead Round Ball Bullets = 48,
0.490" Diameter Lead Round Ball Bullets = 39,
0.495" Diameter Lead Round Ball Bullets = 38,
0.530" Diameter Lead Round Ball Bullets = 37,
0.535" Diameter Lead Round Ball Bullets = 30,
0.570" Diameter Lead Round Ball Bullets = 25.
 
  To conserve lead on the American frontier, smaller caliber muzzle-loaded weapons were often preferred, .36", .40" and .45" caliber were commonly used for self-defense, hunting small game and deer. Muzzleloader caliber selections were based on economics as the United States of America was settled and occupied, such as how many lead round ball bullets do you get from 1 pound of lead:
 
Commonly Used Bullet Alloys

 
Alloy    "Average" Composition
Alloy    "Average" Composition
Wheel Weights, stick-on        1/2-1% tin, 2-3% antimonyFoundry Type - 15% tin, 23% antimony, 62% lead
 96-7.25% lead, 1/4% arsenic 
Wheel Weights, clip-on          Pure lead or nearly so Scrap range lead - Could be (and is) anything
Linotype4% tin, 12% antimony, 84% lead            Plumbers Lead - 99%+ pure lead.   
Monotype  9% tin, 19% antimony, 72% lead                  Lyman's No. 2 - 5% tin, 5% antimony, 90% lead
   
 
 Commonly Bullet Metal Melting Temperatures

Metal
Melting Temp.
Notes:
Lead (Pb)621 degreesWeight, ductility, obturation.
Tin (Sn)            429 degreesReduces surface tension of lead alloy melt up to 750o, better mold fill-out. Reduces the melting temperature of lead. "Slight" hardening & strengthening effect.
Antimony (Sb)1,166 degreesHardens lead alloys, extremely brittle.
Linotype464 degrees - solid 465 degrees - liquidCasts very well with it's 4% Sn and 12% Sb, No expansion on game, poor choice for steel targets. Poor choice for light and mid-range loads.
Foundry Type619 degreesExtremely brittle. NO expansion on game, shatters on steel targets.
WW (clip-on)463 degrees slushy To 505 degrees moltenContains enough arsenic/antimony to enable hardening by heat treating. Heat treating WW alloy with 2% tin added increases hardness / strength without adding brittleness as in high Sb linotype metal.
   
 

To see the complete article go to: http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

_________________
   CONTACT - GREEN RIVER RIFLE WORKS COLLECTORS ASSOCIATION - RIFLES & PISTOLS AT: grrw.ca@gmail.com   WEBSITE: http://grrw.ca.tripod.com/index.htm


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msplcdyankee



Number of posts : 5
Age : 59
Location : north carolina
Registration date : 2017-08-22

PostSubject: Thanks for the input   November 25th 2017, 3:59 am

Gentlemen thank you for your input. Your advice has been helpful and appreciated. I will order some pure lead to get started and shoot that in my rifles.
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