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 Is 70 grains enough?

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Overdue Bill



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Age : 80
Location : Hamlin, NY
Registration date : 2018-04-08

PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 3rd 2018, 2:22 pm

I'm still getting responses to my "is 70 grains enough" post and I didn't find one response saying it wasn't enough.  I sure appreciate all the responses although I didn't reply to each individually.  Love this forum and reading zillions of different posts from zillions of different muzzle loading shooters. Laughing
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 3rd 2018, 3:44 pm

Mad Jack that would shake the "flat hatters" loose with that much going on, you guys are lucky you didn't feel a buggy whip ...  Rolling Eyes

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Rifleman1776



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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 4th 2018, 9:06 am

@Overdue Bill wrote:
My old CVA Big Bore Mountain rifle groups quite well if I don't go over 70 grains of pyrodex.  My question--Is this enough to be effective on white tail?  My shots are usually at about 50 yds.  My main concern (second to safety) is wounding game and not killing it. Question
You don't say what caliber you are using. But, my .45 flinter kills whitetail very ded with a 65 gr. charge.
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Overdue Bill



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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 4th 2018, 9:12 am

My big bore mountain is .54.
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BrownBear



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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 4th 2018, 9:28 am

@Overdue Bill wrote:
My big bore mountain is .54.

My wife slaps deer silly with her 54 using only 60 grains of 3f, whether Goex or Pyrodex P.  She limits her shots to 50 yards, but since we've never recovered a single round ball from deer, I'm guessing she could easily stretch the range to 75 yards.
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burlesontom



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Registration date : 2018-04-10

PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 4th 2018, 12:32 pm

I think we have all been conditioned to think you need 3000fps to game animals. That the only guns that will kill deer dead on the spot are rifles with "Magnum" stamped on the side of the barrel.

But of course thats not the case. Deer and other game have been killed for the last 3 centuries with small bores and light charges of powder. In the 18th century powder and lead were expensive and hard to get for the white settlers. It was even more difficult for the native indians to get. I have read that in the battles between the natives and settlers you could always tell when the indians fired because of the low report from the small powder charges they used. But they killed people and game animals just fine.
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 4th 2018, 12:59 pm

When still acting as an animal control person in PA and NY there were times we used .22 lr and mags to put whitetails down because of folks complaining about the report of high powers.

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burlesontom



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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 4th 2018, 4:51 pm

I got out my Lyman BP handbook and looked up some of the velocities for 70gr charges in 45, 50 and 54 caliber. Powder is G-O FFFg except the first listing. Strangly enough Lyman did almost all the rifle test with 3F powder. They pretty much only used 2F in the 58 caliber. And the 70gr loadings in 58 caliber were pretty weak.

45 caliber 28" barrel: PRB w/70grs 2F 1670fps and 822 FPE 260 FPE at 100 yards.
45 caliber 28" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1994fps and 1172 FPE and 332 FPE at 100 yards.
45 caliber 32" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1977fps and 1152 FPE and 328 FPE at 100 yards.
45 caliber 40" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1925fps and 1190 FPE and 315 FPE at 100 yards.

50 caliber 28" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1587fps and 1005FPE and 365FPE at 100 yards
50 caliber 32" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1663fps and 1104FPE and 389FPE at 100 yards.
50 caliber 43" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1725fps and 1188FPE and 408FPE at 100 yards.

54 caliber 28" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1375fps and 922FPE and 409FPE at 100 yards.
54 caliber 34" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1439fps and 1010FPE and 431FPE at 100 yards.
54 caliber 43" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1527fps and 1137FPE and 462FPE at 100 yards.

Since this is the round ball section I didn't include any data for conicals. But they do strike harder at 100 yards than the balls do. I have checked a few of these velocities with my own chronograph and they are very close to what I got from the same barrel lengths. Longer barrels definitely give a real velocity boost.
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BrownBear



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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 4th 2018, 10:18 pm

For reference a .535 ball weighs pretty close to 240 grains.  At 1375fps from a 28" barrel, that's pretty darned comparable to a 44 mag from a 6" barrel.  Whole lot of handgun hunters have popped deer out to 100 yards and beyond with that load from scoped handguns.  Not a thing to worry about with a muzzleloader, I think.
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strong eagle



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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 5th 2018, 6:49 am

when my dad grew up in the sand hills of n.dak he and his dad and brothers used one old remington .22 to take numerous deer and pheasants. they never thought of deer season back then. when i worked with the turtle mountain chippawa  i got to know a lot of old timers. they all told me they shot moose in the winter with a .22. the would go into the frozen swamp and as a moose was eating willows they would get close and shoot it behind the ear. usually each family unit had about 12 to 15 members in about 2 cabins. it took two moose and a couple of deer to feed them through the winter. ive tasted sausage made by a lot of different people but those guys up on the border made the best home made smoked sausage ive ever ever eaten. they are a native french mixture and french love pork. they never raised beef up their but each family always had a couple of pigs. they mixed pork with moose or deer. once in a while elk came down from canada and they would take them right away. the younger men liked the 22/250 or the 7 mm mag. left the .22 behind. because of that my youngest son has a 7 mm mag and a 22/50. loves both of them for big game and predators. the chips also in the spring netted fish when they were running. only time of the year that they fished. they filled freezers with them so they also ate fish all year long. they would set their freezer on their decks so they only plugged it in in the summer. when the cold weather hit they unplugged them as the out side temp kept the meat froze. they are very self sufficant people and eat mostly wild meat mixed with pork. they also mass hunted ducks and geese and stocked them up for one year. they also ate a lot of split peas as that is the staple of their french trapper great grand fathers ate split peas every. the .22 was a God sent to them in the old days. fed every one. a very strange side bar to all this, my family has found out that my great grandmother on my mother side was one of them. i have their blood in my veins. im very practical like them and laugh alot like they do also. my sin is olive color like they are also. when i worked up their i was looked at by the whites in the surrounding area as one of them. now i know why. my great great grandmother and grandfather homesteaded in northern dakota territory during the civil war and their son, my great grandfather married one of them. i did not know that when i worked with them. the most fun ive ever had hunting when i was invited to a day of hunting deer with them 13 of them with me the one white person. only thing is as i look back i was one of them also. we hunted the scrub oak along the canadian border. even used snow shoes. got used to them fast. you have to walk like a pregnant women. never fall down in deep snow as it is hard to get up again.
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 5th 2018, 9:53 am

Need to get back to subject line: Is 70 grains enough? 


My fault for commenting about a different subject   Dunno

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BrownBear



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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 5th 2018, 6:20 pm

One other point worth making:

My wife is a stellar shot.  You DO NOT want to get in a shooting match with her when she offers up stakes like washing the dishes for a month.  Ask me how I know! Mad

She's also very picky about her shots. She only shoots broadside animals standing still. She also hates to ruin a good venison heart or liver, so she slides her shots back a little behind the deers' elbow, but not so far back as to clip the liver.  Pretty small target, but she never misses. I hear a bang of in her direction, and I unlash my deer drag before I get to her. No need to wait and see if she scored.
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oneshot 1

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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 19th 2018, 4:47 pm

You can have too much powder. Seen many using too much unburnt powder.

If you have an old White Sheet, fire over it until you don't see powder on the Sheet. This is the way we use to do it.

oneshot
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 20th 2018, 8:28 am

Snow works as good as anything.

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oneshot 1

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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 21st 2018, 6:40 pm

@Buck Conner wrote:
Snow works as good as anything.


If you have it.

oneshot
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R. Boone



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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 22nd 2018, 5:40 pm

Am I correct in saying that 70grs of fffg powder is equal to 80 grs of ffg . Actually 77 grs of ffg.
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FrontierGander
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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 22nd 2018, 7:12 pm

Yes, its very close to your numbers.
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AndyinEverson

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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 24th 2018, 11:14 pm

My .54 caliber Hawken Rifle Copy really shines with a 80 grain charge of 2F a .15 patch and 530 round ball.
This is my "standard load" ...Standard as in my one load for all my shooting ...be it target work or hunting.
I have taken deer , bear and elk with this load....most of my shots have been 100 yards or less.
Andy

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FrontierGander
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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 24th 2018, 11:28 pm

That nose cap is something! That's quite impressive.

What kind of finish is on the stock?
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AndyinEverson

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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 25th 2018, 5:34 am

Thanks...!
The nose cap is pewter...and the stock finish is Boiled Linseed Oil...but it is has years of bear grease and or deer tallow wiped on it as well ...from use in the hunting field...
It is my most shot and carried rifle that I own.
Andy

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Mofish



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Registration date : 2018-07-25

PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 28th 2018, 2:25 am

I just made arrangements to buy a .54 CVA Mountain Rifle myself.  I own a lot of muzzleloaders, both custom and reproduction stuff, but that Mountain Rifle has gotten my attention somehow. I am very interested in this thread, as I was wondering how they do with the 70 Gr. load of 3f. 
I shoot matches once a month, so I will get out and shoot the beans out of it before hunting season and hopefully make friends with it. 
Maybe I'll get out and experiment with it on some feral hogs, as I hunt them regularly.
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Overdue Bill



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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 28th 2018, 7:12 am

I hope you'll like it as well as I like mine.  My modest little "rifle" range at my camp is 86 yds. long and I can group 3" with my 54. cal.  I have to say I am not the worlds best shot, neither am I up on all of the high tech equipment that I enjoy reading about here.  Have taken many deer with my Big Bore Mountain from CVA, most of them at probably less than 65 yds.   Enjoy!
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Mofish



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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 28th 2018, 7:27 am

I have my own range, but I never built anything past 100 yds. on it...because the cover is so dense around here that 100+ yd. shots are pretty rare. I'll pick up my rifle this morning and should be able to test it out on a hog within a week or two at the most.
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Overdue Bill



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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 28th 2018, 10:03 am

Oh yeah, keep us posted.  On that 100 yard shot stuff; my property is the same way--what isn't hard woods is now heavy brush, no more open field etc so the distance of my shots is pretty limited.  It is also getting much harder to even catch a view of a deer anymore but still so great being out there.
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heelerau

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PostSubject: Re: Is 70 grains enough?   July 28th 2018, 1:54 pm

I use 90 grains of fffg in my .50 and it shoots real flat out to 100 1/4

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