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 Thinking about a new sidelock...

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CoHiCntry

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PostSubject: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 8th 2018, 4:39 pm

Thinking about getting a new sidelock but not sure what to get?  Trying to decide between getting one "off the shelf" or more of a custom gun built. 

What are the main advantages to getting a custom gun built?  Are there off the shelf guns that are made with quality parts that would be comparable to a more custom gun?

Names like CVA, Traditions and to a lesser extent T/C don't really do anything for me.  I currently have a .54 T/C Renegade anyway.  What about Pedersoli or Lyman?  Are these a better quality gun?  What are other quality guns that can be purchased that are mass produced?

I'd like to get a .54 or bigger.  It will be used for western big game hunting.  Either PRB or big conicals.

What about customs?  GRRW, or TVM or...???  Who else should I look at for a good quality gun?  Probably like to keep it under $1500.  Thanks for any help!
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BigAl52
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 8th 2018, 6:21 pm

Not sure whether you want flint or percussion. But TVM and GRRW you will wait a year for a TVM and Im not sure how far Buck is out on one from GRRW. Tip Curtis may have something on the shelf that you might like. You can also check TOW but there prices are going to be every bit of 1500 and more for any kind of a custom gun. Another guy I really like is John Bergmann. He might have something put together or close to it but he is usually out about  8 months to a year also. John builds a great rifle. If you Google him he has a flicker page you can see his rifles there. Al

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TC Hawken 58 cal Green Mtn drop in barrel
TC Renegade 58 cal
GRRW 50 cal
GRRW 58 cal
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Hawken Squirrel Rifle 40 cal by John Bergman
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patocazador

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 8th 2018, 10:01 pm

Lyman is recalling their guns. I think I would avoid them.

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CoHiCntry

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 9th 2018, 7:23 am

Thanks for the replies.  I'm looking at a percussion for now.  I think I'm leaning towards getting a built gun & not one that's mass produced.

I looked at TOW and was wondering... what are all the guns listed on there?  Looks like some new, some used?  Do people advertise their guns on there or are they owned by TOW?  Kind of confusing.  Did see a couple interesting GRRW on there but they were "sale pending"

Briefly did a search for both Tip Curtis & John Bergman.  No web site found so hard to find any information.  Only chatter on different forums about how good they are.  TVM looks to be all flintlocks?

My problem is I'm a rookie when it comes to these rifles so I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking at?  Why the big price differences?  Better parts or more ornamental detail or what?

I probably need to decide exactly what I'm looking for but I'm not real sure?  I like the looks of the Hawken.  Nothing to fancy and probably a half stock.  Maybe I should just choose a builder and have them help me through the process to nail down what I want?
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strong eagle



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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 9th 2018, 8:24 am

pedersoli is the only one i would ever consider. lyman i found can turn out to be a good gun but from the factory i had to rework, screw, sights, butt plate ect but in the end got a good rifle. not from the factory. traditions has the wrong twist for anything as does old thompsons. again pedersoli is the only thing that is worth a darn out their. customs cost. ive built many but they are costly. in the end if well planned a custom is the way to go. make sure it is the cal and right twist you want. make sure the stock is made for you.
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 9th 2018, 9:44 am

@strong eagle wrote:
make sure the stock is made for you.

Can you elaborate on this a little bit?  What all is involved in fitting a stock to you?
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FrontierGander
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 9th 2018, 3:53 pm

the 1:48 twist does everytjhing otherwise i would not be using it.

Pedersoli is a nice step up but even they have their share of issues, especially with the flintlock versions.

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burlesontom



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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 9th 2018, 6:04 pm

"the 1:48 twist does everytjhing otherwise i would not be using it".

Yep. Its funny that some say a 1/48 twist is not worth a flip but in the same sentence wish they had a genuine Hawken rifle. The Hawken brothers from what I have read only owned one rifling machine and it was set up for a 1/48 twist. So thats what they used on everything. And it shot just fine.

The OP stated he might go for a TVM "Hawken" or plains style gun but wants percussion. They can be ordered in percussion as well as flint.

I think most try to use a ball and patch that are too tight to start with. Then when the gun is fired and the ball is slightly flattened by the pressure and the patch is cut they blame the rifling twist or too large a powder charge. You shouldn't have to beat the ball down the bore. It should slide down the bore in one smooth motion. Then when the gun is fired the ball will obturate to fill the bore but will not cut the patch.
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 10th 2018, 7:32 am

To keep the cost down look at Pedersoli, I like their Rocky Mountain Hawken done in either walnut or maple.



https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/guns-rifles.asp/l_en/partenza_18/idl_2/rifles/rifles.html

Their Rocky Mountain Hawken is now on sale for $1,299.99 at Cabela's last time I looked.

At this time we (GRRW.CA) have a few ready for delivery, all depends on what your looking for, these are custom builds. Most custom builds are not cheap - they will average in the $1,950 to $2,100 range.



  

Just SOLD this one, sorry.

These are examples of varies styles of half stock Hawken's on hand.

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Last edited by Buck Conner on July 10th 2018, 8:31 am; edited 2 times in total
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 10th 2018, 7:40 am

Cabelas has a sale on Pedersoli's now:  https://www.cabelas.com/category/Pedersoli-Overstock-Sale/540547380.uts


Cabelas ad says $1,299.00 for a Rocky Mountain Hawken, available now.

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BigAl52
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 10th 2018, 8:41 pm

I bet that GRRW gun that just sold at track went for over 2k

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Have you ever just sat and thought man I've been through a lot of shit

TC Hawken 58 cal Green Mtn drop in barrel
TC Renegade 58 cal
GRRW 50 cal
GRRW 58 cal
Lyman GPR 54 cal flintlock L&R lock davis deerslayer trigger
Lyman Trade Rifle 54 cal
CVA Hawken 58 cal by Jonathan
Hawken Squirrel Rifle 40 cal by John Bergman
Pedersoli Penn Rifle 50 cal flintlock
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CoHiCntry

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 10th 2018, 8:54 pm

@BigAl52 wrote:
I bet that GRRW gun that just sold at track went for over 2k

Could be... I'm waiting to hear back on how long GRRW waiting list is.  I might have to fork over little more than I originally intended lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 11th 2018, 6:54 am

I love the GRRW rifles and have a rifle with a GRRW barrel built by a former GRRW builder.

Also, I have perused several muzzleloader sites on a regular basis when I was in the market for a rifle. The result was that I bought some outstanding custom rifles for very reasonable prices.
If you send me a message or email, I will list the sites that were on my list for buying used muzzleloaders.
Ron

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CoHiCntry

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 11th 2018, 7:24 am

@RonC wrote:
I love the GRRW rifles and have a rifle with a GRRW barrel built by a former GRRW builder.

Also, I have perused several muzzleloader sites on a regular basis when I was in the market for a rifle. The result was that I bought some outstanding custom rifles for very reasonable prices.
If you send me a message or email, I will list the sites that were on my list for buying used muzzleloaders.
Ron

PM sent... thanks for offer to list the sites!
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 11th 2018, 9:13 am

Chris has been lined up with Doc White as he has several Hawken rifles available at this time. 

Doc likes to build his custom guns in groups of (4). He now has started (4) J&S Hawken (full-stocks on the bench) (3) flinters and (1) percussion gun, all GRRW Collectors Association firearms.

Thanks for your help guys.

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Sparkitoff



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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 12th 2018, 8:46 am

I thought about the same addition just a few months ago. I was reluctant to spend a lot of money only to wait quite a long time and wonder what I would actually get.  My reluctance came mostly from being a rookie with a flintlock not a lack of patience or mistrust of the builders. 

I found there are quite a few nice used rifles out there that are sold by companies that will take it back after about a week if you fondle it but don't fire it.

Track of the Wolf and The Gun Works are two of those that immediately come to mind. I did make a purchase and when the rifle arrived it was completely imbalanced and heavier than advertised. I was provided a quick refund. Another purchase arrived broken. A soldered piece broke off and the lock wouldn't work properly. Another refund. 

I ended up piecing together a rifle.  I bought an L&R lock, a GM 1:70, 38" barrel and a Pecatonia stock. Other than finishing the wood there was not much to do other than assemble it. This works for me so far. 

On a similar note and more direct to your question, I have a Pedersoli SxS 19 gauge that is well made, finished and fit perfectly and has excellent balance. With a round ball load it is accurate at close range and it shoots shot no different than using a centerfire shotgun. 

There are good and bad reviews of Pedersoli all over the internet. My inclination would be to by one from a reputable business that will accept a return (before firing). There are plenty of parts available and a pile of gunsmiths that can repair or tune them. In a factory brand I would give them a shot.

Good luck on your quest!
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 12th 2018, 9:57 am

Here's how our program works at GRRW.CA. By the way we were told this idea won't work. (For an idea that won't work ...).  And an idea (new to the custom gun building business, whether modern or muzzleloading) several other firms are now offering the same (idea) service that we started.
 
We have built (21) J&S, Bridger & 1/2 stock Hawken Rifles, (10) H.E. Leman Trade & Indian Rifles, (6) H.E. Leman NW Trade Guns, (1) Poor Boy and (4) Trapper Pistols - a total of (41) GRRW.CA firearms by four custom muzzleloading gunsmiths that each have over 50 years of experience in the trade.
 
That's (41) guns built since January 2017 that isn't bad for four guys that still find time for hunting, fishing, camping and taking care of their gardens.
_____________________________________________________
 
NO DEPOSIT or NO BACKORDERS here's how this works.
Once you and the gunsmith have determined what you are wanting (desires) the smith recommends a supplier that we work with. You the client orders the parts required, pays for them and the taxes along with shipping to your personal custom gunsmith's address. [We make nothing on the parts - NO kickbacks].

Doing this, this way allows you time to recover from buying the parts and lets you start saving for the finishing costs. Those costs will be the gunsmith’s labor only and the shipping to your address, nothing more. 

Now that's as clean and straight forward as we can make it. If still interested keep on reading for the Process Steps as promised. This saves you money, "you ask how does it save me money"?  With you paying the taxes we don't need to have a book keeper on our end, no Federal or State Taxes need to be collected plus no business location to pay rent on - no overhead. No additional charges as you have covered everything with the parts to the smith.



If interested and wish to be added to our "Customer Waiting List" contact me:  
Buck Conner: grrw.ca@gmail.com


------------- GRRW Collectors Association -------------

When your name has been recorded, (placed on the “Customer Waiting List”) you have started the process. Once there's an available GRRW gunsmith you will be contacted that your build is next. If still interested .....

FIRST STEP

1). When it’s your turn you will be given the GRRW gunsmith's email or his phone number to start talking about your ideas & desires.
 
2). You and your smith will go over the parts needed for your custom firearm build (build sheet). 

3). Then the gunsmith will provide you with the supplier of choice (determined by your upgrades). A list of parts will be discussed along with any part changes from the normal rifle/pistol parts kits. 

4). You the customer orders the required parts kit, pays for the kit at the supplier’s store by phone or on their website & has the kit shipped to your personal GRRW gunsmith's location provided by the smith.
 
5). You and your gunsmith will keep in contact during the building process for any changes or upgrades desires.

SECOND STEP 

6). Once the firearm is completed the GRRW gunsmith will contact you letting you know your rifle/pistol is ready for delivery. You will pay the gunsmith for his labor & the cost of shipping to your address. 

NO MiddlemanNO Additional Charges at the front or the end of your build, just parts, labor & shipping.

NO Hidden Costs or Add-Ons

 
---------------------- GRRW.CA ----------------------

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Sparkitoff



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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 12th 2018, 10:41 am

What a great program!
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 12th 2018, 11:21 am

@Sparkitoff wrote:
What a great program!

Thank you, it has been working very nicely and everyone seems pleased. Allowing the client to make two payments lessens the pressure on their cash flow and gives them time to regroup for the final payment.  :tup2

We have received emails from several modern gunsmith's that are using the idea and are experiencing more traffic with folks being interested with this idea.  :rtup

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burlesontom



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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 12th 2018, 11:25 am

I agree. What a great way to operate a business. If I were younger and thought another Elk hunt was left in me I might be all over that deal.
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 12th 2018, 11:38 am

@burlesontom wrote:
I agree. What a great way to operate a business. If I were younger and thought another Elk hunt was left in me I might be all over that deal.

Hey you got years to go bud, I'm a lot older than you and still have a GRRW.CA Trapper Pistol coming. 

Man when they get me and all my toys in that pine box it had better have one hell of a bottom in it....  lol!

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burlesontom



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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 12th 2018, 1:13 pm

"Hey you got years to go bud"

I hope so. But I barely have diabetes per the doctor but I have neuropathy in my lower legs and feet. My feet are almost numb. Last July I walked out on the hot cement bare footed to get the mail. I burned the bottoms off both feet and the bottoms of my toes. I never felt a thing. 

I don't have a lot of strength in my legs and don't think I can climb anymore mountains. And I miss that. I loved walking around in the Rockies in the Gunnison area of Colorado.
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 12th 2018, 3:58 pm

@burlesontom wrote:
"Hey you got years to go bud"

I hope so. But I barely have diabetes per the doctor but I have neuropathy in my lower legs and feet. My feet are almost numb. Last July I walked out on the hot cement bare footed to get the mail. I burned the bottoms off both feet and the bottoms of my toes. I never felt a thing. 

I don't have a lot of strength in my legs and don't think I can climb anymore mountains. And I miss that. I loved walking around in the Rockies in the Gunnison area of Colorado.

I hear you I have diabetes also, have lost approx 42% of the blood flow from the waist down. Like you, can't feel my feet or my toes, really have to look at where your walking or placing yourself, this getting old really sucks. I still like to hunt but have to have a hunting friend if needed.

You mentioning Gunnison, the GRRW Collectors Association is putting together at this time their 2018 GRRW Rendezvous in Grand Junction Colorado for mid Sept between hunting seasons. I'm working with the folks in Grand Junction for display area, lodging and a play to shoot. 

You may want to come over and take a look at the GRRW and GRRW.CA guns on display plus get to talk to the original gunsmiths of GRRW (same great guys, just 40 years older). Doc told me I wasn't allowed to say "older", they all see themselves when GRRW was in full swing. Biggest problem they are starting to pass on, we lost Lloyd Helms this past year.

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 12th 2018, 7:47 pm

Thanks for the invite but we are going to see my youngest son in Maryland over the labor day holiday. He just got out of the navy after 4 years and I have got to see him only once a year since then. So this is a trip I do not want to miss. I have a long lost buddy that lives in Grand Junction. At least he did the last time I heard from him.

I liked your suggestion to the OP about a Pedersoli Hawken. I just got a new Dixie catalog and in the flyer they show the Pedersoli Mountain Hawken walnut for $995 and the maple for $1095. And they weigh a whopping 10 pounds.

I got to handle an old original half stock many years ago. I bet that sucker weighed at least 12 ponds. It was a brute of a rifle.
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about a new sidelock...   July 13th 2018, 4:01 pm

I have CoHiCntry and Carl Walker (GRRW.CA custom gunsmith) hooked up and talking about what Hawken will/could be built. I'm sure CoHiCntry will let us know what he has decided.   Smile

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