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 What's the reaL STORY?

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stoney1
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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 10th 2018, 6:59 am

@Rick N Bama wrote:
@BrownBear wrote:
@stoney1 wrote:
... if I have 4F in my pan and Pyrodex in the barrel, will the 4F create enough heat to ignite the Pyrodex? No one seems to be able to give me a straight answer on this, or doesn't want to.

Never tried it that way, but only because I haven't had any reason to do it. I just put a couple of drizzles (3 grains each) of 4f from my pan charger down the bore before dropping in the Pyrodex. Then I charge the pan as normal with the 4f. Always works and ignition is as fast and reliable as with a straight load of black in the barrel.  It's costing me and "extra" 6 grains of 4f per shot, I've been able to afford that so far!   Very Happy

When my Grandson first got his Lyman Trade rifle all he had to use was Pyrodex.  When him & his Dad couldn't get it to fire they called and I headed over with a can of Goex 3f.  We used that in the Pan and yes, it did light the Pyrodex in the barrel.  We continued the Pyrodex in the barrel and the Goex in the Pan.  He uses KIK 2F in the barrel and Goex 4F in the pan.
Rick N Bama
Thanks, I appreciate your reply. I have, however, eliminated my anxiety but getting my doctor a pound of Graf's 3FFF true Black. I doubt that there will be any issues with this? I have NEVER used a BP sub, and I'm not sure that I want to? I have enough Goex from 1977 for me to do any shooting if I decide to. My concern was removing any possible confusion or disaster from my Doctor's first time experience with a Flintlock using 2 different powders. We've managed to resolve that issue with just the one pound of 3FFF Graf's. Tomorrow at 11:00 am (my time, est) we'll find out how this thing shoots. I built him a .50 cal. percussion last year and exactly one year later I built him an exact twin in Flint. Thank you for your reply.
God bless:
Stoney1

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 10th 2018, 7:40 am

Graf's is a good powder. I prefer it over Goex. It's made by Schuetzen. (Wano) They use Buckthorn Alder wood for the charcoal. Just like Swiss powder does too.

It burns cleaner than Goex and has just a bit more power. Cheaper too as a bonus. Graf's buys it in bulk and puts it in their containers.

It's a shame local shops jack up the prices so high.

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 10th 2018, 10:25 am

@OldMtnMan wrote:
Graf's is a good powder. I prefer it over Goex. It's made by Schuetzen. (Wano) They use Buckthorn Alder wood for the charcoal. Just like Swiss powder does too.

It burns cleaner than Goex and has just a bit more power. Cheaper too as a bonus. Graf's buys it in bulk and puts it in their containers.

It's a shame local shops jack up the prices so high.
Thanks Pete.
 I agree, but I'm not paying for it, so it doesn't hurt QUITE as much! I just found out 2 days ago that Graf's is made by Schuetzen. I used to make my own BP. I used flowers of Sulfur, Potassium Nitrate (salt peter), and Botanical grade powdered Charcoal. I got it all from my local Pharmacy. These days if I bought that stuff, I'd have Homeland Security pounding on my door. I remember the pharmacist asking me, " do you have ANY idea what will happen if you mix these things together?" Shocked  I said "Yup." Light Bulb  I can still see the look on his face when I close my eyes.
Thanks Pete.
Be good.
Stoney

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 10th 2018, 10:57 am

They started to crack down on black powder ever since the Boston bombing that used black powder. You'll notice now the bottles of powder have a serial number. They can keep track of who's buying it now.

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 10th 2018, 11:35 am

@OldMtnMan wrote:
They started to crack down on black powder ever since the Boston bombing that used black powder. You'll notice now the bottles of powder have a serial number. They can keep track of who's buying it now.
Hey Pete.
 I heard that, but what's weird is that Wal mart and my buddy NEVER asked for ID. NO name, no nuthin" just paid and skeedaddled. I can tell you that the store owner never tried to give me my receipt. I guess he was just going to pocket the money and claim that the receipt was a bad one that he had to void and rewrite later? I had to ask for it then he said, "I know you, you don't need it." I said yeah, but it's not for me, I need it to give to the guy I'm buying the powder for." He reluctantly handed it to me,  Embarassed but I think he hadn't intended to? Now he'll have to show the sale on his tax records. :tup2

Oh well.
Stoney

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 10th 2018, 11:42 am

Yeah, it's always suspicious when they don't want to give a receipt.

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 10th 2018, 2:33 pm

@OldMtnMan wrote:
Yeah, it's always suspicious when they don't want to give a receipt.
Pete
Yeah... I get a little Squeamish about those sorts of things too. That NEVER seems like a good idea!

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 10th 2018, 7:37 pm

@OldMtnMan wrote:
Graf's is a good powder. I prefer it over Goex. It's made by Schuetzen. (Wano) They use Buckthorn Alder wood for the charcoal. Just like Swiss powder does too.

It burns cleaner than Goex and has just a bit more power. Cheaper too as a bonus. Graf's buys it in bulk and puts it in their containers.

It's a shame local shops jack up the prices so high.

Have you ever shot any KIK?  I'm now wondering if it & Graf's might be one in the same?  I can't say that KIK is cleaner than Goex, but I do think it ignites faster and may have a bit more power than Goex, plus it's some bit cheaper.
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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 4:19 am

@Rick N Bama wrote:
@OldMtnMan wrote:
Graf's is a good powder. I prefer it over Goex. It's made by Schuetzen. (Wano) They use Buckthorn Alder wood for the charcoal. Just like Swiss powder does too.

It burns cleaner than Goex and has just a bit more power. Cheaper too as a bonus. Graf's buys it in bulk and puts it in their containers.

It's a shame local shops jack up the prices so high.

Have you ever shot any KIK?  I'm now wondering if it & Graf's might be one in the same?  I can't say that KIK is cleaner than Goex, but I do think it ignites faster and may have a bit more power than Goex, plus it's some bit cheaper.
Rick N Bama
 Never heard of KIK powder until I started this discussion. I used Goex back in the 70's and always LOVED it for fast ignition, and power. I was hoping to see how good this Graf's is this morning, but it's raining like the Devil here, so it may have to wait another week? Take care and thanks for your input.
God bless:
Stoney

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 7:23 am

@Rick N Bama wrote:
@OldMtnMan wrote:
Graf's is a good powder. I prefer it over Goex. It's made by Schuetzen. (Wano) They use Buckthorn Alder wood for the charcoal. Just like Swiss powder does too.

It burns cleaner than Goex and has just a bit more power. Cheaper too as a bonus. Graf's buys it in bulk and puts it in their containers.

It's a shame local shops jack up the prices so high.

Have you ever shot any KIK?  I'm now wondering if it & Graf's might be one in the same?  I can't say that KIK is cleaner than Goex, but I do think it ignites faster and may have a bit more power than Goex, plus it's some bit cheaper.
 I wasn't aware they still made or sold KIK powder. No, I never tried it. My favorite powder is Swiss but the prices have gotten stupid lately.

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 9:02 am

By searching through Google I'm only finding one dealer for the KIK Powder and that is Powderinc.  They're only showing 1f and 1.5f so they may well be out of business.  I've had my can of 2f for several years.
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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 1:32 pm

@Rick N Bama wrote:
By searching through Google I'm only finding one dealer for the KIK Powder and that is Powderinc.  They're only showing 1f and 1.5f so they may well be out of business.  I've had my can of 2f for several years.
Like I said, I've never heard of them. Maybe they ARE out of business? I'd think that if they were still around, SOMEONE would be advertising their powder on one of the websites?
Stoney

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 2:14 pm

No Dave, 


They are not out of business been around as long as you or longer using several different names throughout the year.




https://powderinc.com/product/kik-1-5fg-black-powder/

https://www.gun-tests.com/issues/17_8/features/-5270-1.html#.W29CxehKiUk


http://www.norwestcompany.com/comparison.htm

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 2:16 pm

@Rick N Bama wrote:
By searching through Google I'm only finding one dealer for the KIK Powder and that is Powderinc.  They're only showing 1f and 1.5f so they may well be out of business.  I've had my can of 2f for several years.

Look at these places that handle KIK and most of the other brands.

https://nortonsafe.search.ask.com/web?q=history+of+KIK+Black+Powder&o=APN11908&chn=1000&guid=87C38451-17DF-44D1-9B9B-6DE396733C79&doi=2016-12-18&ver=22.8.1.14&prt=NSBU&geo=US&locale=en_US

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 2:54 pm

See New Topic In the Powder Room


"Some of the old black powder companies are still around...."


In this test, KIK brand black powder produced higher velocities than the same volume of both Goex and Elephant black powder in all four test guns. The average velocity produced by KIK brand black powder was 12.4% faster than that produced by the same volume of Goex, and 14.3% faster than that produced by the same volume of Elephant brand. Elephant brand black powder produced lower velocities than either of the other two powders in all 4 guns.


Interesting, have to try KIK out, what do you think Pete.

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 3:12 pm

I think they're out of business. Goex was involved with it. What's being sold is leftover stock and it's going fast. A lot of your links are old. One of them showed Goex in metal cans.

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 3:22 pm

@Buck Conner wrote:
No Dave, 


They are not out of business been around as long as you or longer using several different names throughout the year.




https://powderinc.com/product/kik-1-5fg-black-powder/

https://www.gun-tests.com/issues/17_8/features/-5270-1.html#.W29CxehKiUk


http://www.norwestcompany.com/comparison.htm
Thanks Buck
 I never heard of these folks.  WOW... that bottle looks EXATCTLY like my Graf's bottle? I have a new knife to show you. If it ever stops raining long enough to go out for pics.
 I just sent a write up to Jonathan about what we discussed. Might be great, might blow up in my face? Only time will tell.
Dave

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 3:37 pm

Background.
In June of 1997, GOEX, Inc. closed the Moosic, PA black powder plant that they had operated since 1972.Construction had previously started on a new plant near Minden, Louisiana.
Start up of the new plant was delayed until March of 1998.So there was a period of about 8 months where GOEX was out of production.
Through contacts with the Swiss black powder plant, management from GOEX was introduced to the management of a black powder production facility in Slovenia.GOEX then began to purchase black powder from the plant in Slovenia for importation into the U.S.
Known as KIK D.D. According to a powder can. KIK Kamnik d.d., Fuzine 9 1240 Kamnik Slovenia - Europe
This plant is no longer in operation. (2009)
This company being part of Kemijska industrija Kamnik d.d.
The black powder plant dating its origin back to 1852.
 
This paper had been prepared in 2002. After GOEX brought in the container of KIK “rifle “powder in May of 2000 that appeared to be the end of GOEX’s relationship with the powder plant in Slovenia. Which proved to be the case. But in importing the KIK powder into the U.S. GOEX set the stage for something that would cost them some of their profits. GOEX had long supplied Estes Industries with black powder for use in model rocket motors. GOEX claims that all of the black powder they had imported from KIK, in Slovenia, had been sold to fireworks powder customers. No doubt Estes had been shipped KIK powder while GOEX was trying to get the black powder plant near Minden, LA up and running. In 2002 we again see containers of KIK made black powder arriving in the U.S. and Estes was not the only company importing it. 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 None entered the U.S. from Slovenia. November June May August November January January April 33,000 pounds at $2.85 per pound, landed duty paid value. 34,375 pounds at $2.88 per pound, landed duty paid value. 34,375 pounds at $2.67 per pound, landed duty paid value. 34,045 pounds at $2.76 per pound, landed duty paid value. 29,414 pounds at $3.54 per pound, landed duty paid value. 34,375 pounds at $2.49 per pound, landed duty paid value. 36,401 pounds at $2.54 per pound, landed duty paid value. 23,971 pounds at $4.00 per pound, landed duty paid value. The November 2004 container and the April 2007 container were imported by Western Powder Company. One of GOEX’s master distributors. These two containers were rifle powder packed in tin cans at the KIK plant. The other containers represent bulk packaged powder ordered by Estes Industries for in-house use in model rocket motors. The January 2006 shipment to Estes was their last order to the KIK plant in Slovenia. GOEX recovered that business by lowering the price of their powder to Estes Industries. In the data we see a pattern. GOEX brought in the container of KIK rifle powder in 2000. Western Powder brings in a container in 2004 and then again in 2007. When it takes you 3 to 4 years to sell a container of black powder to black powder shooters it does not speak highly of that particular powder. Especially when one considers that it is sold at a price below that of GOEX powder. 16

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 4:00 pm

Western Powder was the maker of Green River Black Powder until they blowup in Roosevelt Utah. Their plant was on the corner of Doc White's acreage.


I was at a gun shop a few months ago and picked a few can's (new style label) in tin cans. I asked how old it was - just arrive from the dist. in KS (have seen it in both tin and the plastic containers in the last few years at gun shows too).  This is like most of the black powder wares anymore, you never know if its old stock or new and the store doesn't care - sell the item - bottom line.

I just asked 'Powder, Inc.' if they still have KIK powder available, lets see what their answer is?

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 4:11 pm

I'm not for sure it's gone Buck. I find it strange that nobody is selling it that has 2F or 3F in stock.

It seems that all we can buy is 1F or cannon. That would be the last of it to go. I'm open to be wrong. Maybe not out of business but not bringing it to the US anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 4:13 pm

@OldMtnMan wrote:
I'm not for sure it's gone Buck. I find it strange that nobody is selling it that has 2F or 3F in stock.

It seems that all we can buy is 1F or cannon. That would be the last of it to go. I'm open to be wrong. Maybe not out of business but not bringing it to the US anymore.

Boy, bringing anything in that goes 'bang' is getting questionable with Donald in charge.....

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 4:18 pm

My neighbor got black power a few weeks ago, but like you say with all the additional charges it's not cheap. 


He uses 'Buffalo Arms' for most of his purchases https://www.buffaloarms.com/black-powder

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PostSubject: Re: What's the reaL STORY?   August 11th 2018, 5:27 pm

They have high prices on everything. Graf's and Sons is the best deal.

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