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FrontierGander
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FrontierGander

Male Number of posts : 16283
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PostSubject: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 1st 2018, 10:45 am

Man, i've been searching through forums all morning and havent found one darn muzzleloader ( traditional ) for sale thats worth a darn, or not one at all! I remember the days where the forums were flooded with traditional muzzleloaders, even just junkers, and it seems now, they have all dried up or are just being hoarded.

On gunbroker right now and what a joke that place is! A few bucks more and I can buy a new rifle for what these clowns are asking lol!
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mlrifleNY

mlrifleNY

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Registration date : 2017-09-25

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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 1st 2018, 11:42 am

That seams to be the way it is now days. Everyone thanks what they have is worth what they paid for it or more. I remember when used was at best worth half what you paid for it. Custom built rifles are a different story.

Jim

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54 cal. longrifle  flintlock
50 cal. longrifle  flintlock
50 cal. longrifle  percussion
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1860 Henry in 45 colt
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RhinoDave

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Registration date : 2017-01-25

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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 4th 2018, 7:30 am

Lately I've found the best place to buy Muzzle loading related guns and acc. is at smaller local gun shows where the primary focus is on modern guns. It seems there is always someone just "getting rid of" traditional guns and supplies. I've never run across any deals on gun broker. I gave up on it and Fleabay long ago. Wide variations still exist though. At the last small show here at our local VFW there was a guy selling "orginal" first run TC Hawkens for almost $900.00 Two tables away a guy was selling a very nice TC hawken for $150.00 guess which one sold? Also at this show were two CVA .45 cal. Kentucky pistols that sold for $80.00 each. I've managed to keep myself supplied with percussion caps for $2.00 a tin or less for the past several years.

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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

Male Number of posts : 3406
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Location : UT
Registration date : 2015-10-20

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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 4th 2018, 7:14 pm

@FrontierGander wrote:
Man, On gunbroker right now and what a joke that place is! A few bucks more and I can buy a new rifle for what these clowns are asking lol!

All it takes are a few guys running up the price on  an item, then everyone that has one thinks theirs is worth that amount too. Then everyone is asking more than what in some case the item is really worth.  We all saw that happen with GRRW guns a few years ago.

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Sparkitoff



Number of posts : 203
Age : 72
Location : NC
Registration date : 2018-06-08

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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 5th 2018, 7:43 am

Sometimes the people on the forums are their own worst enemy. I enjoy this site because there is not much "snobbery" among us. As a retired PH and an English trained gunmaker I appreciate the best of the best.  I also recognize that not everyone can afford that level of item and there is nothing wrong with a utilitarian item to get the job done. This has a two-pronged effect.  First, someone with a TC, CVA, Traditions, Lyman or other factory made arm is subjected to negative adjectives. "It will always be an XYZ no matter how much money you throw at it", "Don't waste your money and save for a ABC", "They are known for the problems", "Lipstick on a pig".  These blanket statements completely disregard the many good products of this type that are in service and ignore the simple refinements that can be done inexpensively to put a hand-touch on an otherwise factory arm (lock polishing or replacement comes to mind). Second, this person with the XYZ arm now feels they need something greater - at least a Pedersoli- but better yet an ABC whatever. Well this person now needs to sell their XYZ to fund the ABC. They have some money in the former and need a lot more for the latter so their for sale price reflects that. What RhinoDave and Buck said are true. The bargain comes from the person that is "getting out of" this or has excess arms. The for sale section sets a bar for price. The people on the forum are either dedicated or sometimes fairly new and seeking information and advice. So the forum folks are getting poked with both points of the fork.

To be candid, I have a Traditions percussion that I made from a kit. It is my son's rifle. Without anything fancy being done to it the rifle shoots 1.5" groups at 100-yards with the load it likes (it is picky). It is 10-years old and has never failed.  I put together a Frankenflint from a TC Renegade stock, L&R lock and GM barrel. It is reliable and accurate. I redid a stock on a CVA and tweaked a few things on the 54 percussion rifle. It likes a lot of powder but it shoots PRB under 3-inches at 100-yards. None of these rifles would be worth $250 on a trade in - in fact substantially less. None would fetch over $400 even on a forum for sale site. Yet, they are capable of providing service equal or greater than many "custom" rifles out there. It is their namesake and the quantity of them that somehow hold them back.

Craigslist would be a better place to find a fair price as would a pawn shop. Forums rarely feature a bargain and if there is one it is gone in a minute.
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 5th 2018, 11:22 am

@Sparkitoff wrote:
To be candid, I have a Traditions percussion that I made from a kit. It is my son's rifle. Without anything fancy being done to it the rifle shoots 1.5" groups at 100-yards with the load it likes (it is picky). It is 10-years old and has never failed.  I put together a Frankenflint from a TC Renegade stock, L&R lock and GM barrel. It is reliable and accurate. I redid a stock on a CVA and tweaked a few things on the 54 percussion rifle. It likes a lot of powder but it shoots PRB under 3-inches at 100-yards. None of these rifles would be worth $250 on a trade in - in fact substantially less. None would fetch over $400 even on a forum for sale site. Yet, they are capable of providing service equal or greater than many "custom" rifles out there. It is their namesake and the quantity of them that somehow hold them back.

Craigslist would be a better place to find a fair price as would a pawn shop. Forums rarely feature a bargain and if there is one it is gone in a minute.

"It's all in the eye of the beholder", 
man is that a true statement we have heard forever. 

You can have your dolled up fancy average rifle (TC, CVA, Tradition) but the bottom line like just said by Sparkitoff, you won't recover what was spent when sold. I have done that many times.

You need to decide what your wanting, something for show and tell (fancy no matter what it is $$$) or a good solid muzzleloader that performs and meets your needs (one that if it gets a ding you won't have a fit over). 

Some of the best hunting rifles were what Sparkitoff mentioned - I got a  used TC (Hawken .50 cal.)  GM barrel and a Ron Long - percussion lock. That gun killed more game than any 5 rifles added together of members in our muzzleloading club.  

Used when traded for, GM barrel was a bonus in a trade, lock was another trade. Only new items purchased were the iron butt plate and trigger guard (looked like a Hawken but with only one barrel key. I had probably $250 total in the gun). But could have built one for a customer for $300 plus with used items.  

You can doll them up or use your head and build one like mentioned keeping costs down. Great truck guns for backup too.

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Kentucky Colonel

Kentucky Colonel

Male Number of posts : 1774
Age : 110
Location : Luna
Registration date : 2015-10-28

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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 5th 2018, 12:57 pm

@Sparkitoff wrote:
Sometimes the people on the forums are their own worst enemy. I enjoy this site because there is not much "snobbery" among us. As a retired PH and an English trained gunmaker I appreciate the best of the best.  I also recognize that not everyone can afford that level of item and there is nothing wrong with a utilitarian item to get the job done. This has a two-pronged effect.  First, someone with a TC, CVA, Traditions, Lyman or other factory made arm is subjected to negative adjectives. "It will always be an XYZ no matter how much money you throw at it", "Don't waste your money and save for a ABC", "They are known for the problems", "Lipstick on a pig".  These blanket statements completely disregard the many good products of this type that are in service and ignore the simple refinements that can be done inexpensively to put a hand-touch on an otherwise factory arm (lock polishing or replacement comes to mind). Second, this person with the XYZ arm now feels they need something greater - at least a Pedersoli- but better yet an ABC whatever. Well this person now needs to sell their XYZ to fund the ABC. They have some money in the former and need a lot more for the latter so their for sale price reflects that. What RhinoDave and Buck said are true. The bargain comes from the person that is "getting out of" this or has excess arms. The for sale section sets a bar for price. The people on the forum are either dedicated or sometimes fairly new and seeking information and advice. So the forum folks are getting poked with both points of the fork.

To be candid, I have a Traditions percussion that I made from a kit. It is my son's rifle. Without anything fancy being done to it the rifle shoots 1.5" groups at 100-yards with the load it likes (it is picky). It is 10-years old and has never failed.  I put together a Frankenflint from a TC Renegade stock, L&R lock and GM barrel. It is reliable and accurate. I redid a stock on a CVA and tweaked a few things on the 54 percussion rifle. It likes a lot of powder but it shoots PRB under 3-inches at 100-yards. None of these rifles would be worth $250 on a trade in - in fact substantially less. None would fetch over $400 even on a forum for sale site. Yet, they are capable of providing service equal or greater than many "custom" rifles out there. It is their namesake and the quantity of them that somehow hold them back.

Craigslist would be a better place to find a fair price as would a pawn shop. Forums rarely feature a bargain and if there is one it is gone in a minute.

I love this post. ^

Many people also forget that people come in different packages. Some rifles just don't physically fit everybody. I am part Sasquatch. Shorty Mc Shorty's rifles just don't work smoothly for my orangatang arms. 

Plus, I do think some folks are 'hoarding' things they think will be valuable because they are popular and maybe not being built. Some nay-bob has been selling a three piece lever for a Ruger Old Army for $125.00 on eBay. FOR A PART. This is a significant percentage of what you can find a whole nice used pistol for. Ridiculous. But, because someone has posted this and everyone has seen it, suddenly, everyone thinks their's is worth that. PFFFFFTTTTT.... I think it just slows general sales down.

I find patient and persistent searching when combined with keeping contact with the folks you know to be an excellent combination when searching for a fair gun for a fair price. (Plus, if it ain't fair or in my budget, I usually won't spring for it. I confess that I have once or twice.)

(Chuckle) I only get frustrated when I want something NOW.Very Happy

_________________
"One of the sanest, surest, and most generous joys of life comes from being happy 
over the good fortune of others." 
― Robert Heinlein


Florida Muzzleloaders Association 
Central Florida Muzzleloaders 
Green River Rifle Works Collectors Association
NMLRA
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

Male Number of posts : 3406
Age : 79
Location : UT
Registration date : 2015-10-20

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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 5th 2018, 1:54 pm

Hopefully most follow in your footsteps KC.  I still remember twisting your arm to buy that GRRW kit from Tom Watson a few or so years ago.  
After all the crying from someone  affraid , it turned out alright ....  cheers

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Kentucky Colonel

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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 5th 2018, 2:38 pm

@Buck Conner wrote:
Hopefully most follow in your footsteps KC.  I still remember twisting your arm to buy that GRRW kit from Tom Watson a few or so years ago.  
After all the crying from someone  affraid , it turned out alright ....  cheers

There was a bit of worry although I don't remember tears. (Maybe when I wrote the check Wink ) 

I don't tend to spend that much on my rifles. It makes me nervous when I do. And, this was a KIT when I bought it- original though it may have been. If GRRW dreaming had not been rooted in my favorite memories of my youth and my friends? If people whose opinions I had grown to trust had not green lighted it? If there had not been such a cool story? I would not have risked it and bought Traveler. Glad I did.

I respect the artistry involved in the upper end guns.  Shooting something that costs as much as a car drains the enjoyment for me. I suddenly get nervous that I'm gonna stratch it. I want to put it in a museum. Look. No touch. Definitely no shoot. 

I don't care for safe queens in my safe. But, now that the prices on some GRRWs have gone up so much? (Chuckle) I think harder before hauling out Traveler!

But, I did today. A friend came by and he got to hold Traveler. (.58 GRRW/GRRW CA Hawken built by Carl Walker) I enjoy hearing the inevitable, "Geez! This is hefty!" and the accompanying look of pure lust to shoot it. Sometimes, the price is worth it. 

I may still cry when I write the check. :shh

_________________
"One of the sanest, surest, and most generous joys of life comes from being happy 
over the good fortune of others." 
― Robert Heinlein


Florida Muzzleloaders Association 
Central Florida Muzzleloaders 
Green River Rifle Works Collectors Association
NMLRA
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

Male Number of posts : 3406
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Location : UT
Registration date : 2015-10-20

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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 5th 2018, 3:22 pm

We all cry at that time and question our actions for years to come ......  Oh the all mighty buck $$$ .... crap !@#$%^.   pale

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falcon

falcon

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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 6th 2018, 10:51 am

Made my rounds of the Lawton pawn shops some time ago. There was one TC sidelock rifle and several inlines. The .54 caliber sidelock, think it was a Renegade, had a badly trashed bore. Shop wanted $200 for it.

Got to be careful buying muzzleloaders online. Some sellers will lie about the condition of the bore: i've been bit twice and my return was prompt. Few years ago i lucked out and bought a .54 caliber TC Fire Hawk for $100 from a Lawton pawn shop. Wood was somewhat shopworn but the blue and bore were pristine.


Am currently watching a left hand .54 caliber TC New Englander online.
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burlesontom



Male Number of posts : 168
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Registration date : 2018-04-10

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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 6th 2018, 4:06 pm

You don't see BP rifles in pawn shops like you used to. I have heard they don't like buying them anymore because they don't sell very well. It took me a long time but I found the gun (almost) I had been wanting for a long time. That is a Pedersoli Scout Carbine. They sell for $750 at Dixie. I found a used one on GB for $360 with shipping. Its in 50 caliber and I really wanted a 45 but I can live with the 50. It shoots fine and is light and easy to carry. I just have to figure out a good way to sling it.

No its not traditional and is more of a fantasy gun. That doesn't matter to me. There have been so many BP rifles built and modified that somewhere in time there may have been a rifle built close to what I have. And thats good enough.

But yes prices on BP rifles are crazy. I bought a Traditions Springfield Hawken from Bass Pro back in the late 1990's as a kit for $105 shipped to me. The finished rifle was only $130. Now at Muzzle-Loaders.com that kit is around $300. Who in the world would pay that for a very base model gun? They shot great. It has a super smooth bore and I suspect thats why Jonathan likes the Traditions guns he writes about so much. But I can't see $500+ dollars for a Traditions Mountain Rifle. But maybe I am just wrong. But I do keep my eyes out for bargains. They still come up once in a while.
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bronko22000



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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 19th 2018, 3:48 pm

Several years ago I found a site (proxibid.com) that still exists. But back then not too many knew about it and I was picking up Knight 85s for $50 and T/C sidelocks for usually around $100.  Jon I think you purchased that Tenn rifle off me for what I paid for it.  That is a sweet shooting and light rifle with a real pretty stock.
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fred45



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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 19th 2018, 4:31 pm

a few years ago I was in the mood for a CVA long rifle, just had an itch, was a time they were all over the place, could not find one anywhere. Then I stopped by the Bass Pro NRA museum and they used CVA long rifles for the bolsters on the hand rail to the second floor,176 of them!!!! well that explained that.
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Mofish



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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 20th 2018, 2:21 am

I've been to Bass Pro in Springfield Mo., and saw the stairway lined with those CVA's. It sort of is confusing as it looks impressive, but sure seems like a waste of firearms. I don't know who thought up such a thing, but it does sure get your attention.
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burlesontom



Male Number of posts : 168
Age : 62
Location : Burleson, Texas
Registration date : 2018-04-10

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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 23rd 2018, 1:38 pm

I just sold my Lyman trade rifle on GB for $310.00. Just about what I paid for it. So I just traded dollars. I thought I wanted a flint lock but changed my mind. It was listed for a few weeks before I had a bidder. Then he got out bid at the last minute.

It has never been fired and sold for a $100 less that the others listed on GB. So its a pretty good deal for the buyer. Would I have liked more? Yes but it is what it is. Now I have a little cash to buy something else if I want. A Henry single shot 357 has my eye right now. But I need another gun like I need another wife. Evil or Very Mad

So if I find a deal on a clean BP rifle I will buy it. I would like to have a custom but my off the rack guns do everything a custom gun does just without as much style.
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WASATCH CHARLIE



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Registration date : 2018-04-22

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PostSubject: Re: Hoarding the muzzleloaders?   Hoarding the muzzleloaders? EmptyDecember 28th 2018, 4:40 pm

This reminds me of a time long gone by.....we used to spend are summers in Vermont.....a brother MASON of my grandfather had a few cabins in the country just south of the famous ''shelbourne museum''   we ,my little brother and I had a great time. henry parker,looked like  iccabode crane,he had several barns of antiques-junk for sale   but one small barn had piles of swords,clay marbles,old uniforms and row upon row of front stuffers.......I wonder now,where they all went.....back then,there was just about  zero  interest in them.......that was the mid 1950's.
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