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 What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have

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muzzlestuffer



Number of posts : 11
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Location : arizona
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PostSubject: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 1st 2019, 12:38 pm

Trying to find out who has what rifle and possibly some pics and description would be great. 
Thanks !!
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 1st 2019, 2:57 pm

   I brought my first GRRW Leman Trade Rifle in the spring of 1973 at dealer cost for $150.00 (retailed was $199.99). I was a dealer for GRRW one of three in Northern Colorado. My first Leman was either #136 or #138 serial number can't remember now (I'll have to check to see what the earliest  serial numbers were put in the record book). 


   It was either Phil Meek or Bob Allen asked me at the 2017 GRRW Rendezvous in Roosevelt about anything unusual in the GRRW guns we handled. My reply was " We just purchased new directly from Doc White or paid a few bucks more from the two largest dealers in the state "Old West Arms" or "Trappers Rendezvous" who always had a good inventory. We would buy, trade and sell the GRRW products and within days from when coming into the shop they were gone. Never took the time to really study them just cleaned up used ones, corrected problems and out the door they went." Fast turn around and a good profit maker, even had a list of guys wanting us to find them a special model.


   My GRRW was built in late 1972 had standard factory finished with standard set of components, Kern coil spring lock, heavier commercial butt plate and trigger guard, a 1” x 33” Douglas (not GRRW) barrel secured to the stock with one barrel key, a poured pewter nose cap that was shaped to the same contour as the forearm, beaver tail cheek piece.


Here's a few pictures as Lou had asked for.
What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  Leman-1

What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  Leman-2
What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  Leman-3

Leman Rifle whether the half stock "Trade Rifle" or the full stock "Indian Trade Rifle" were always in demand, probably the most seen at any buckskinner event.

To see the complete history on GRRW go to the man Doc White or one the largest GRRW collections with Phil Meek's nicely done website.

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/green-river-rifleworks/
http://grrw.org/

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Last edited by Buck Conner on January 2nd 2019, 4:56 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 2nd 2019, 11:30 am

If interested in these guns we wanted to let you and your members know of a FREE newsletter available for folks like yourself with muzzle loading and black powder on your minds.

All it takes is contacting the editor Bob Allen at: bob@bucksnorttrading.com He will send you the current issue of his newsletter “The Green River Gazette”. Don’t forget to ask for the back issues of the Gazette, good reading about such guns as Leman and Hawken firearms like those built by GRRW back in the 70’s and 80’s.


How simple is that, no ads, no requests, no beg letter, just information on a freebie. You don’t get that very often in the muzzle loading field today.


Thank you for your time.

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muzzlestuffer



Number of posts : 11
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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 2nd 2019, 11:50 am

Buck is there a list of all the known grrw rifles and the information on each that would sure be interesting to see what's out there ?
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 2nd 2019, 12:34 pm

@muzzlestuffer wrote:
Buck is there a list of all the known grrw rifles and the information on each that would sure be interesting to see what's out there ?

Good morning Lou,

I would look at Doc White and Phil Meek's stuff, they have the most complete websites. Carl Walker has the record books but that's not available to the public (he retrieved what he has of the records at closing found in a trash can).

Doc Whites website.
http://whitemuzzleloading.com/green-river-rifleworks/

Phil's website.
http://grrw.org/

I'll keep looking to see what else we could add to your topic here, good idea Lou.   :tup2

Hey, you need to come around here more often, you always come up with something of interest, that's what we need (fresh blood and new thoughts).

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muzzlestuffer



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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 2nd 2019, 1:43 pm

Try to think outside the box if you know what I mean ? I like to know what's out there it helps me have a idea of what the value of my guns are so obviously if I have the lowest known serial # that's good for me I guess.
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 2nd 2019, 4:53 pm

I called Carl Walker today, he told me they didn’t really start keeping serial numbers at GRRW until he had built a Leman Trade Rifle for his son serial number #102,   showed it to his friend and fellow gunsmith at GRRW Gardell Powell who had just finished a like gun for his son and come to find out both guns had the same numbers. 

They decided they need to have everyone on the same page and made a master record book for everyone to use with Carl keeping the book. There were many non-numbered guns when first starting out at GRRW according to Carl, kits didn’t have serial numbers. He couldn’t really tell me other than he thought it was the later part of spring 1973 when they were serious about keeping the numbers straight.

On Doc White’s website he mentions Carl and himself shooting Leman Trade Rifle #101. He also stated that GRRW had purchased 1,000 of Kern’s locks and was glad when they used them up. From Doc’s comment about the number of Kern locks purchased, around 1000, then GRRW switched from using the Kern lock on the Leman Trade Rifle to using Ron Long’s Hawken lock.  Ron Long began producing his Hawken locks and triggers late in 1974 or early 1975 from what Ron told me a few years ago.
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The first advertisement for Green River Rifle Works and their Leman Trade Rifle appeared in the July 1972 issue of Muzzle Blasts.  The production rifle was very similar to Carl Walker’s prototype.  It had a Kern coil spring lock, a 1” diameter Douglas barrel, brass furniture, a maple stock, a single barrel key, and a poured pewter nose cap.  The introductory price of $164.95 was a substantial discount off the regular price of $199.95.  The rifle proved to be very competitive with the mass produced muzzleloaders available in the early 1970’s and was well received in the market.  The price was increased from $199.95 to $225 in 1974.       ---  per Phil Meek

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muzzlestuffer



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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 2nd 2019, 5:29 pm

Makes me wonder if that's why blue jacket started on his rifles maybe he knew better ? Mine is #6 so I would like to find out at least currently if I have the lowest # known at this point in time.
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 3rd 2019, 10:35 am

Usually low serial numbered firearms (past experiences when buying or selling) isn't as much as most owners think. We all have dreams of having a winner like the lottery.

Example if the average (whatever) in average condition is worth $500 and one (same model) in excellent to new is bringing $600 (middle of the serial number range).  Same gun in excellent to new condition with a low serial number may bring another $100 + $600 = $700. The only thing that would change is a bidding war like seen with the GRRW guns of late (mainly because of a few of the larger collectors finishing out their own personal collections).  This has been the general thinking of serious collectors (not GRRW) that have been watching the firearm markets as a whole. An ideal situation for the seller.

I would contact Phil Meek through his website, as I consider him or Bob Allen [Green River Gazette] (and few others in WY) are the best sources for answering your question.  My knowledge on the pricing for GRRW guns went out the window when a few of the collectors when crazy with their bidding. Bob and Phil brought back the attention that these guns once had. Post their replies, it would be interesting to read their thoughts Lou.

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muzzlestuffer



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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 3rd 2019, 12:27 pm

I don't feel like I hit the lottery ! Lol just the grrw lottery I do think I have a gem based on what reputation blue jacket had and his work at grrw it doesn't have to equate to dollars per say but it's like a piece of history grrw history I feel honored to hold and shoot this gun and all that it's been thru and how the original owner felt about it he had a extremely large firearms collection worth in the millions that he donated to a museum but he kept this gun so that tells me how he felt about it and to put icing on the cake it's one hell of a shooter so I really don't want to sell it especially having my hawken rifle that ron built me I have the best of both worlds old and new !!
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 3rd 2019, 1:05 pm

"I really don't want to sell it especially having my hawken rifle that ron built me I have the best of both worlds old and new" 


You should be happy Lou, like said "the best of both worlds .... " :tup2

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plmeek



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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 3rd 2019, 6:51 pm

@muzzlestuffer wrote:
Makes me wonder if that's why blue jacket started on his rifles maybe he knew better ? Mine is #6 so I would like to find out at least currently if I have the lowest # known at this point in time.

Lou,

Back in 2012, I was contacted by a guy in Nebraska that had a couple of GRRW guns that he wanted information on.  One of them was a Leman Indian Rifle that he thought may have been made by someone named Bluejacket.  Unfortunately, he was unable to send me photographs of the rifle but here is his description of it.

Quote :
I just fetched up my Leman Injun Rifle and looked her over once again. It has a old looking "tombstone" stamp with a rounded top. Inside it looks like an O over a X. It is directly ahead of the wood on the first flat left of the top flat.  I was told at the Montana Western in '92 by the seller, that was the stamp of Blue Jacket. Do you know who went by that name?

Atop the barrel, just in front of the nipple, is a star, followed by No. 2, followed by another star and then, GREEN RIVER RIVER WORKS over ROOSEVELT, UTAH.

This is followed by another star. There is also a star behind and forward of  both the rear and front sights. These stars are hand cut and not stamped. This rifle bears no other marks such as a serial no. The only "serial" no. being the No. 2 on the top flat.

The other rifle he owned was a Jim Bridger Commemorative Hawken rifle.

There is also supposed to be Leman Indian Rifle #1 here in Colorado, but I haven't been able to confirm that beyond 3rd hand information.

The prototype that Bluejacket built for the Leman Indian Rifle turned up in Vernal, Utah a few years ago.  It was written up and published in the July 2013 issue of the Green River Gazette and also pictured on Doc White's website.

In answer to your question, the prototype and #2 is known for the Leman Indian Rifle.  Serial number 1 may also be around, but not confirmed.

I believe the prototype was built in 1974.  It was taken to the NAPR Rendezvous that summer and photographs of it were published in the October 1974 Buckskin Report.  I'm not sure when the first production rifle was made, but likely that year.  Production was slow because their stock duplicator wasn't long enough to handle full stocks, just half stocks, and they had to hand shape the stocks from a stock blank.  By the time they began producing the Poor Boy rifle in 1977, I estimate that they had made approximately 30 Leman Indian Rifles.  The Indian Rifles and the Poor Boy rifles shared the same serial number range and the lowest number for a Poor Boy I know of is 32.

Phil Meek
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muzzlestuffer



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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 3rd 2019, 7:01 pm

Thanks for the info. It beginning to seem like there's not a whole lot of these guns around or at least known at this time. I do know my rifle was made in 74 as the drawing that blue jacket did under the butt plate and I think the books show as well so this is good information to have and document thanks to you and buck for helping with this.
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 4th 2019, 10:33 am

I contacted Mr. Meek and he replied to me as well as here. Phil and his buddy Bob Allan along with a couple of gentlemen from Billings, MT. are the best sources for the old firm.  I have the record books for the later firm - Green River Rifle Works Collectors Association and Carl Walker has the GRRW Records (which are hard to figure out on early guns with lacking formation).  Thank you Phil one more time, these collectors are always willing to share what they know.

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Kicked Back



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PostSubject: GRRW Poor Boy   What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 15th 2019, 6:13 pm

I ordered my GRRW Poor Boy 50cal percussion new from GRRW in 1978-79, not sure anymore! I placed the order myself from the gun department in the sporting goods store I managed. The serial # is 184. I have enjoyed it always and it is a shooter. Just thought you would like to know.
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muzzlestuffer



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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 15th 2019, 6:27 pm

That's great do you have a pic or two?
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Kicked Back



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PostSubject: pics   What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 16th 2019, 10:14 am

muzzlestuffer… I am still trying to figure out how to do pics. when I do I will add them.
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Marty
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PostSubject: Re: What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have    What serial # grrw Indian trade rifle do you have  EmptyJanuary 16th 2019, 11:41 am

@Kicked Back wrote:
muzzlestuffer… I am still trying to figure out how to do pics. when I do I will add them.

Try this...

Images can indeed be shown in your posts. However, there is no facility at present for uploading images directly to this board. Therefore you must link to an image stored on a publicly accessible web server, e.g. http://www.some-unknown-place.net/my-picture.gif. You cannot link to pictures stored on your own PC (unless it is a publicly accessible server) nor to images stored behind authentication mechanisms such as Hotmail or Yahoo mailboxes, password-protected sites, etc. To display the image use either the BBCode [img] tag or appropriate HTML (if allowed).
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