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 PRB effectiveness on big game?

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CoHiCntry
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CoHiCntry

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PostSubject: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 10th 2019, 2:02 pm

As I venture into the world of PRB and plan to use it for big game hunting, I'm curious what everyone's opinion is on the effective range for PRB?  Specifically in a .54 caliber as that's what I'll be using.

My initial thinking is to stay under 100 yards.  With open sites in a hunting situation I can't see extending my range much past that.  But maybe that's to far?  Maybe 75 yds or even 50 yds is more realistic for PRB?  I look at hunting with a traditional rifle & PRB as a "close encounter" hunting experience anyway so I'm not really looking to extend the range so to speak just want to make sure the PRB is capable of taking down anything from an antelope on the small end up to an elk or moose on the big end and at what distance.  I know these have been used forever on big game so I'm not questioning if it can or cannot take down big game, but I'm interested in everyones experiences with at what range or distance it's possible?

So anyone with actual hunting experience that can chime in would be great.  I'm not talking about "got real lucky" hail mary type hunting situations.  I'd love to hear the ranges everyone has killed big game with a PRB and what they feel there maximum range is?  And why they have chosen to limit themselves to said distances.  Thanks...

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Marty
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 10th 2019, 2:16 pm

I'm also VERY much interested in the PRB ballistics.  Looking forward to replies. bounce
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FrontierGander
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 10th 2019, 2:21 pm

For moose I'd keep it 100 yards and closer. Antelope, deer,elk, 150 yards all day long with a .54cal and patched round ball.

With my 50cal, 125 is max due to the drop. I could up my charge yes, but I like to keep it simple and know that out to 125 yards, that ball still going to do the job clean and effectively.

Ballistics suck on paper with patched round balls, Don't get fooled into that low energy the paper shows when shooting PRB, they kill much differently than modern day bullets do.

Before conical bullets every came out, folks in the day were still killing elephants with round balls.
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 10th 2019, 3:47 pm

Check these out guys.

Round Ball Calculator

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=db15baa8


When you down load the zip file you will get this message.
____________________________

READ ME!
External Ballistics Program

Installation: 
After downloading the 'ballistics.zip' file, place in the directory where you want it and then extract the files. Depending upon the version of your operating system, you may be able to just double-click on the 'ballistics.zip' and you will get a prompt asking if you want to extract the files - answer Yes. You may be able to right-click on the file and look for a menu choice 'Extrace All.." - either one will work.

You might also get a warning that the file might damage your computer; this is a standard warning Windows now gives with all '.zip' files, but this is a 'safe' program. 

After the extraction is finished, there will be a folder 'ballistics' containing five files:

   READ_ME.txt - That's this one...
   External_Ballistics.exe - The ballistics simulator
   QtCore4.dll, QtGui4.dll, QtXml4,dll - Supporting files

The files should all be kept in the same directory or the program may not run, as it needs the '.dll' libraries.

Running the program:
Start the program 'External_Ballistics' by double-clicking on it; it should start immediately and look like it does on the web page. In some older versions of Microsoft Windows, there may be extra files that are needed to make it run, and if so, there should be a window that pops up and says something like 'File xxx.dll is missing' - or a similar message. If you get one of these, email me with the missing file name, and I will try to get it to you.

swardlaw@ivdx.com

Here's what I got using this chart

PRB effectiveness on big game? Ballistics-findings

what are your results ???
____________________________

Here's .50 caliber charts.

https://www.google.com/search?q=50+caliber+velocity+chart&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjt35T1nrLgAhWJr1QKHQwyChwQsAR6BAgCEAE&biw=1182&bih=682
____________________________

Here is what Doc White has found, he hunts Africa about every other year and has for 20 plus years that I know of. ...  Look at his findings.

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/long-range-muzzleloading/
____________________________


Last edited by Buck Conner on February 10th 2019, 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Marty
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 10th 2019, 4:09 pm

As much as I favor the .45 caliber, I am concerned about taking Black Bear with it given the bullet weight for a .45 PRB.   Black Bear of any size is a long, sought-after trophy for me by bow or muzzleloader.  Is a .50 or .54 the better way to go with PRB for game bigger than whitetails?  (I also need to take into consideration that .45's are restricted in some areas of the country for big game.)
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FrontierGander
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 10th 2019, 4:27 pm

.50cal + is great for deer,bear,elk, even moose.

A 128gr round ball in a .45cal has been a great deer and bear slaying machine, but remember, in those days, they were close shots, possibly often from treed bears.

To a new guy wanting to use patched round balls, you have to take all of the modern muzzleloader knowledge and just throw it out the window. Patched round ball hunting is just a completely different ball game and over time you will learn to slow down and not get into a rush or make questionable shots.

I've been at it so long that it just feels natural. To a new comer, it can be overwhelming " or so it seems " but in truth, once an accurate load is worked up and you practice and practice and soon reloading and accuracy comes naturally like pulling the trigger on a semi auto or even working a bolt action rifle.

Patience is key to all hunting, along with shot placement.

You put that 128gr round ball ( if its legal in your state ) into a deers lungs at 75 yards, you have dinner on the table.

I'm reading a Sam Fadala book right now and he admits that he talked down on the round ball, about its poor ballistics compared to modern day stuff and finally someone asked him... Have you ever shot an animal with a patched round ball? Of course he hadn't, he had zero experience hunting with round balls and so he got caught with his foot in his mouth.

I've seen folks shoot at elk with everything from a 3006 to a 300 win mag and have them get away simply because these guys did not practice, were shooting distances they had zero experience with.

Marty, you are a bow hunter, I know you could easily get into the traditional game and do very well at it, simply because of your patience and willingness to listen and learn.

Always start off with something cheap! An old cva kentucky or hawken fits the bill perfectly until you learn the basics and get comfortable.
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 10th 2019, 4:29 pm

@Marty wrote:
As much as I favor the .45 caliber, I am concerned about taking Black Bear with it given the bullet weight for a .45 PRB.   Black Bear of any size is a long, sought-after trophy for me by bow or muzzleloader.  Is a .50 or .54 the better way to go with PRB for game bigger than whitetails?  (I also need to take into consideration that .45's are restricted in some areas of the country for big game.)

Everyone will have their own likes and dislikes on these two sizes Marty.  I personally like .50 caliber for shooting most game in North America, have killed black bear and buffalo with this caliber. Friends think I'm crazy with the lighter ball over a .54 caliber on big game.  I've seen as I'm sure you have seen guys shoot animals with a gun as large as a .72 caliber and get bad results. My family always preached "bullet placement" we had that drilled into our heads at a very early age. If you don't put the ball where it needs to go a cannon ball wouldn't help either.
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 10th 2019, 4:51 pm

@FrontierGander wrote:
Ballistics suck on paper with patched round balls, Don't get fooled into that low energy the paper shows when shooting PRB, they kill much differently than modern day bullets do.

Great comments so far guy's, thanks!  Can you elaborate on this statement a little more FG?

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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 10th 2019, 5:22 pm

I have killed four elk with round balls. Two cows, two spikes, all Roosevelt, the cows were "large". One spike and one cow with .50 the others .54. All were broadside at 40 to 85 yards. Three were double lung and went about 40 to 60 yards and fell over dead. One I hit low across the top of her heart, she went about 40 yards. Found all four balls in the far side between ribs and skin about nickel size. Powder charges 80 to 100 grns of pyrodex in .50 caplocks and 3f goex in flintlock .54. Round balls are very capable at under 100 yds with a broadside shot. I would not try to take out a front leg bone on an elk quartering toward me and expect to get to its vitals with a round ball or a 220 grn saboted bullet. A 400 grn conical, different story. Round balls work, conicals work better.
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 10th 2019, 5:28 pm

I wouldn't say conicals work better. Conicals have their uses yes, but we've all seen folks that wound game with conicals and todays best sabots. Either wound or claim this such and such bullet sucks because it did not do this or that. In the back of your mind you are always thinking... No... you didn't do this or that, that's why it failed.

I remember one cow I nailed with a double lung shot at 140 or 146 yards? with a simple .530" round ball and 80gr Pyrodex RS. She hopped up, walked up the side of the mountain and 60 yards later she was down with a solid blood trail throughout the brush. This was with a 54cal of course.
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 10th 2019, 5:41 pm

In the mid 1960s to mid 1970s i deer hunted with patched round balls in MD.   The deer there are huge.  The rifle most used was a .58 caliber.   Fast forward to 2012 or 2013 when Fort Sill outlawed the use of inline rifles during deer season on Quanah Parker range.   i bought a nice .50 caliber New Englander rifle for $150, sighted it in and killed a big doe.  

Since that time i've killed  at least one deer every season using .50 or .54 caliber patched round balls.  Last season i killed three deer using .50 caliber patched round balls.  Two of those deer bang flopped.  

Also killed a bunch of wild hogs using patched round balls.   The most recent kill was a 175-200 pound wild boar.

My shots are limited to 75 yards. Much prefer closer shots.

When associated with round balls, foot pounds of energy mean very little.  .50 patched round balls kill as effectively as stiff 150 grain handloads  from a .308 or .30-06.  With the round ball there is no bloodshot meat.

The round ball usually expands to the size of a nickel.   Unless very heavy bone is hit round balls exit deer sized animals and even elk.

Round ball ballistics:

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/web_apps/rb_ballistics.html

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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 10th 2019, 10:28 pm

I have ZERO Experience with Patched Roundball on Game, But i do understand Ballistics quite well, I have been Avidly Reloading Centerfire Since i was 14-15 Yrs old to Current. From a Ballistic standpoint Patched Roundball sure doesn’t look very impressive. But fact is they Kill Game, and they have been effectively doing so for MANY MANY Years. The key, Regardless of projectile used, is to put it where the “Critter Lives” Lungs/Heart. And understand the limits of the projectile you have Chosen to use, Making sure to Stay inside those Limits :tup2


I Bought my .45 Cal CVA Mountain Rifle to have Fun with, and Learn about Patched Roundball. I plan to Target Shoot a BUNCH, and possibly Compete at a Gun Club South of me where PRB is all you can use. I might very well Deer Hunt with it? Especially if i can get The kind of accuracy i get from my Bullet Barrels.


Here is a Comparison of a Bullet I actually Shoot quite a Bit, the Lyman Whitworth #457121, And my Little 128 Grain .440 Roundball. Lets go with the 90 Grain load here of Goex 2F, Note the ft lbs of energy at 100 Yards, My Little 128 Grain Roundball Muzzle velocity is 1,825 FPS with 90 Grains of Goex 2F and has 947 ft lbs of energy at the Muzzle, At 100 Yards the Velocity has dropped to 1,027 FPS and only has 300 Ft lbs of energy left.
 My Lyman Whitworth Bullet at 475 Grains with the Same 90 Grains of Goex 2F has a Muzzle Velocity of 1,271 FPS and 1,704 Ft lbs of energy at the Muzzle, At 100 Yards the Velocity has dropped to 1,107 FPS But it stil has 1,294 Ft lbs of energy. This big 475 Grain bullet has 994 More ft lbs of energy than my Little 128 Grain Roundball at 100 yards. Another way to put it, This 475 Grain Bullet has more energy at 100 yards than my Little Roundball has at the Muzzle.


Again, The key is knowing the effective Range of the projectile you have chosen, and staying inside that effective range. The Big Bullet is gonna carry MUCH Farther, and Hit MUCH Harder. It’s simple Physics.


PRB effectiveness on big game? T5Ra3FWl


PRB effectiveness on big game? S3whv5Al
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 10th 2019, 10:50 pm

I'll have to calculate my 70gr 3fg goex load in my 50cal but if its in the 1350 fps range, at 30 yards, i hit my bull elk with 520ish ftlbs of energy and that ball exited.

This is where I said, throw all that modern day ft lbs energy out the door, it just doesn't add up with a round ball. The projectile just flat out penetrates.

Im surprised to see that 128gr round ball at 300 ft lbs of energy at 100 yards. That's pretty darn good for that ball. Even at 1750 for a .490 round ball, its a little over 430 ft lbs energy.

I feel that the shape of the ball in general helps it penetrate deeply without needing that huge energy level behind it.

Lets put it like this. Who feels more comfortable shooting an elk with a 245gr powerbelt that has 3x the energy * just coming up with random numbers here * than a 223gr .54cal round ball? I know which one I'd choose and its not the powerbelt.
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 11th 2019, 5:46 am

The Ballistics themselves don’t lie, they simply are what they are. The problem is when “people” decide to come up with things such as a Min ft lbs of energy required to humanely kill Game, That is where i STRONGLY Disagree!! The best example i know of that is the Old 1,000 Ft lb Minimum for Deer, i have read 1,200 all the way up to 2,000 Ft lb Minimum for Elk. I would like to know WHO COMES up with these numbers??? A lot of it is Gun Writer Stuff, And Whatever Cartridge they are trying to sell at the Time. But as time goes on these numbers Start becoming Gospel, Pretty soon it’s the “Golden Rule” Just like a “Sea Story” 

What is the Most Common weapon used in the Field by a Butcher to Kill Beef? A little .22 Magnum! I can Remember it well Growing up, Pretty Darn amazing to See a 1,000-1,500 Pound Beef Collapse DRT From a Little 40 Grain Bullet between the “Running lights” The only time a Butcher would go for a Bigger Scoped gun was on Wild Cattle that they couldn’t get Close to, They would normally use a .223 for those. My Dad use to Butcher Beef, Hogs, And Buffalo before i moved here, And when i got here i helped him some with it. The ONLY time i ever seen Dad opt for a Bigger Gun than his little Lever Winchester .22 Magnum was on a HUGE Old Buffalo Bull, This Bull was every bit of 2,000 pounds, I swear His Head was the Size of the Hood on my little Toyota Pickup! Dad brought his Rifle rest, The Bull was standing Broadside With a Mountain Backstop Behind him, Dad Shot him through the Side of the Head with his .300 Magnum. Could he have Killed the Bull with his .22 Magnum? He and i talked about it, Dad felt he Probably could have? But why chance it?

Here are some Fun Numbers to Run, my Little .36 Cal TC Seneca AKA “Squirrel Rifle” VS a .22 Magnum. A VERY common .22 Magnum Round is a .40 Grain Bullet traveling at 1,800-1,900 FPS. So lets go with the upper end at 1,900 FPS and give the .22 Mag everything we Can (it’s gonna need all the help it can get here  Very Happy ) 
    A 40 Grain Bullet traveling at 1,900 FPS has 321 ft lbs of Muzzle energy. A 65 Grain Roundball from my Seneca at 2,150 FPS has 667 ft lbs of Muzzle energy. Now lets Say we stuff a Maxi Ball in my .36 Seneca, The Maxi’s Weigh 128 Grains (Same as my .440 RB) My Seneca Spitting a Maxi Ball at 2,001 FPS has a Muzzle energy of 1,138 Ft lbs, Talk about STOMP a .22 Magnum to Death! My little .36 Cal Squirrel Rifle is Doing JUST THAT! 

For those that might Question the Numbers, Yes Sir the Little .36 Seneca will INDEED run the Numbers i gave, I have shot mine over a Chronograph to See? YEP it does it!!

Here is the .22 Magnum
PRB effectiveness on big game? W0e27Mll

And the little .36 Cal Squirrel Rifle
PRB effectiveness on big game? NsInZ0vl
PRB effectiveness on big game? YN9kSMkl

And the little .36 Cal AKA “Squirrel Rifle” with a 128 Grain Maxi Ball
PRB effectiveness on big game? 8UHvOFyl
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 11th 2019, 7:03 am

I'm learning again after many years let any Bullet have time to do its Job.

Killed a 450 pound Hog with 45Cal. Inline with 180 XTP Sabot, 80Gr. Pyrodex RS at 80 yards.

Know of a Black Bear killed out of a tree with 22 Hornet.

oneshot
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 11th 2019, 7:55 am

My Dad lived in Alaska off n on through the 80s working in the Timber industry, Dad met lots of People there over the years, You will never guess What the Weapon of Choice for Locals that Poached their Moose Meat? It was the .22 Magnum! And of all places, They would shoot them behind the Front Shoulder just like you would a Big Magnum Centerfire, They would Drive off, Go get their Gear, and when they got back, Their Moose would be there close by! My Dad wasn’t involved in this, But He knew several guy’s there that did it, and was told it by MANY MANY locals, Dad said when they Told him what they used, they would wait for Dad to Call BS on them? But my Dad knew GOOD N WELL that the .22 Magnum was EXTREMELY Capable, He had ZERO reason to Doubt what they were Saying, My Dad had LOTS N LOTS of hands on Experience with the .22 Magnum. Dad spent 40 years of Hunting with Hound Dogs, His .22 Magnum was the Only Gun he used! 

Back on track With the OPs Question, The Data i provided Above Clearly shows the .36 Cal AKA “Squirrel Rifle” with Little 65 Grain Roundball Beating up on a .22 Magnum BADLY!! It is DOUBLE the Energy! Now think about all the .22 Magnum has done, and keeps on doing. 

A Roundball in it’s effective Range is no Doubt DEADLY!! It has proven itself OVER N OVER For Eons, There’s no disputing that. As I’ve said above, the Key is knowing any projectiles Effective Range, and Staying in that Range! If you start trying to Reach out past that Range, you are asking for Problems, and you are Being UNETHICAL! Everything i look at “Ballistically” 100 Yards should be your MAXIMUM Range with Patched Roundball, 50-75 Obviously being better. 
      The Big bullet on the other Hand stretches out several Hundred Yards. There is a Reason they use BIG 500-540 Grain Bullets to Compete in BPCR (Black Powder Cartridge) all the way out to 1,000 Yards, The BIG Bullets Keep Chugging along, A Roundball does NOT
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 11th 2019, 8:41 am

I hunt with a .54.  I have used only one conical bullet in it and it weighs 535 grains and is traveling at a MZ of 1428 FPS from my rifle. It does recoil pretty good off the bench but it behaves like any other rifle or shotgun offhand or off sticks. This rifle has 1:24" twist and is MOA accurate at 100-yards with this bullet/load so that is what it gets. The whitetail deer, axis deer, black bear, elk and exotics all had an exit hole and ran up to 30-yards with a good blood trail to follow.

I love my flintlock and like hunting with it. It too is a .54 but the twist is 1:70 and it shoots PRB only. The MV of the Hornady .530 RB is 1694 FPS with 80 grains FFFg pushing it. I have hunted with PRB for only a couple of years but I do shoot a lot of animals because I live two States with generous limits and diverse game. I also travel to hunt since I have a lot of connections as a retired PH. 

I expected what I had read about. The ball will stop on the off-side and be flat as a quarter. To my surprise these two attributes have never occurred simultaneously. I have had a ball stop on the off-side but just as often I have had a pass-through. I have never recovered a ball that looked like a quarter or a nickel. The recovered balls have all been mostly round, some with a flat spot and some with a groove or dimple. Again these are factory "swaged" balls that are said to be pure lead. 

In the first instance on game we watched a cow elk bed down in a draw. I went on top of it and worked down. When I eased into the draw I saw the elk sitting with its legs under it and neck fully outstretched upward, looking right at me. The range was less than 50-yards and maybe half that (things happened quickly). I shot it head-on in the chest. The animal turned went up the side of the draw and ran three stride lengths. There was a garden hose like fountain of blood coming out the chest. Later upon examination there was some stomach damage. Then I found the exit hole about an inch to the side of the anus. Yes, full length penetration on a cow elk. That was unexpected.

The next elk was an ambush situation. I waited in concealment by a water hole as three elk worked down the mountain. They had done this before so I knew they were coming to that water. The edge of the water was 80-yards. Where the elk entered was somewhat beyond that maybe 10 to 20 yards further. After a few minutes of drinking the largest of the three was first to climb back up the bank. This rifle is sighted in dead-on at 100-yards and hold about 2.5" 3-shot groups off the bench. I used a kneeling position and put the sights centered a few inches behind the shoulder. At the shot the smoke blocked my view of any reaction. Looking past the smoke cloud I saw the elk stop around 30-yards from the "pond". It stood motionless for about 4 seconds and then took a step backwards and fell over on its side. It did not move again. I did find that ball. My angle was a little more quartering away than I thought. The ball hit where I aimed but came to rest in the opposite shoulder just under the skin where you could see the bulge of the ball under the fur. It took both lungs out with big holes through them and broke the scapular bone before stopping. The ball has a line in it but is still round enough to roll on a flat surface if you threw it hard enough. 

On the latest whitetail deer that was standing about 60-yards away I put the ball right in the triangle of the elbow and shoulder. The ball blew right through and the deer actually ran in a straight line about 50-yards and then collapsed mid-stride and skidded to a stop. The entry and exit hole are near the same size but the exit hole is a V shape and a rib was broken that has a V shaped piece missing. 

Black bear at 45-yards had a small entry hole and a similar sized exit hole though lungs. It spun around, straightened out and made one stride before front-rolling to a stop. 248 pounds weighed. 

This will be a long post if I list everything I took with the .54 PRB flintlock since favoring it for hunting. I occasionally use a .62 smoothbore with round balls under close-range circumstances. I also will take the .54 conical shooter when I know the hunting terrain and set-up will likely be at 100-yards or somewhat more and the game is big. In Texas it is routine to have a feeder placed 100-yards from the blind. For a deer or hog in good daylight I can use the .54 PRB/Flintlock or the .54 conical/percussion and would not notice any difference in results. My mule deer spot puts the trail right at 125-yards from the cover and the bucks sometimes will wander back and forth off the main trail corralling does. On that hunt the conical shooter retains accuracy and energy more consistently over 100-yards so I will use it. 
My max range under ideal conditions with the PRB is 100-yards. That is because it is sighted in dead on at that range and I can keep a good group. In the field the wind, fatigue and unfamiliar rest or lack of add factors that make it potentially less efficient and I chose not to shoot further. With the conical rifle it is also sighted in dead on at 100-yards and groups slightly better. The sights are also finer and there is no chance of a delay from ignition to discharge. However the heavy conical drops like a cinderblock as range increases. I am comfortable with it at 125-yards with a rest and I might use Kentucky windage to hold over or high on a big animal that was ten or twelve more yards away. Anything else and I will pass or try to get closer. 
So within 100-yards and over two dozen kills I have not experienced a huge difference in performance between the two the way I apply them.
If I was going to shoot 150 - 200 yards first I'd need very good peep sights or a scope and second I might use a difference caliber with a smaller diameter and less trajectory drop - but still good weight to length ratio. I personally don't hunt like that anymore and I like to be close and fussy.
My own comparison that is not apples to apples at all but just my personal reference is this: If I would use my 35 Remington with sights and feel comfortable I can use the .54 PRB/flintlock. If I long for a little more bullet weight, flatter trajectory or bullet performance for a target animal 25-50 yards further I can use my .54 conical/percussion.

You asked about .54 and got other answers about .45 and .50. I've use those too but I hunt with my .54's now. The caliber and my two rifles suit my hunting style and expectations best.
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Marty
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 11th 2019, 9:17 am

What a Face Wow.. you PRB guys really have my head spinning now on caliber selection Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 11th 2019, 9:57 am

@oneshot 1 wrote:
I'm learning again after many years let any Bullet have time to do its Job.

Killed a 450 pound Hog with 45Cal. Inline with 180 XTP Sabot, 80Gr. Pyrodex RS at 80 yards.

Know of a Black Bear killed out of a tree with 22 Hornet.

oneshot

You guys talking about killing game with small calibers.  Years ago (1950's) in Northern Colorado near Estes Park there was a lot of young cattle being killed by mountain lions. Two of my neighbors both crippled old farmers from hard lives held the records for the most male and female lions killed in the state. Fred lived the next valley over from us while Cal lived next to us (we are all on 300 plus acre places). Fred held the record for the most male lions at 61 while Cal had killed 53 females. I asked how was that possible, neither one could tell me how or why, just turned out that way. 

DOW would pay the bounty on mountain lions at $50 a hide, it cost $50 to have a head mount rug made out of a hide. They sold the rugs in Estates Park for $75 and they retailed from the dealer for $100. Nice little cash earner with no money out of pocket to say just a little ammo.

Cal told be the hides couldn't be shot up so a small caliber was needed, both used .22 caliber rifles and pistols. They took the DOW on several hunts with their 30-06's (which they never hit an animal). Fred said "that's why you have dogs, the dogs put the cat up a tree, you slowly walk under the cat and shoot him behind the ear while he's watching the dogs.

The biggest cat killed by either one was Cal's at 168 pounds "killed with a .22 caliber 'Long' not a 'Long Rifle' they cost more" was Fred's comment.   Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 11th 2019, 2:32 pm

I've never killed an elk or moose but have killed loads of deer.  Being a native Georgian, I took advantage of the 12 deer per year limit.  I've killed them with a .45, .50, 54 and .62 smoothbore.  But the vast majority were killed with a couple of .45 rifles; and in every case with every caliber the kills were all made with prb. 

The ball often penetrated completely; but just as often I'd find the ball flattened out under the off-side skin.  At distances under about 50-60 yards the entry hole was much larger than the exit; often astonishingly so.  Blood trails were often copious.  The farthest kill was 75 yards.  The ball went completely through and the deer ran a little but still well under 100 yards.  There was a blood trail that was easy to follow.  There were plenty of "bang-flops" and none ran more than a few yards.  Most shots were 30 yards and under.

With a couple of .50s I killed a deer at 100 yards and later another at something over that.  Complete penetration and a blood trail.  There were also a couple of bobcats and a coyote that fell to a .45 prb.  Every one of these kills was accomplished with ONE SHOT.  I have never fired a conical in the bush or at any game animal.  Elk are very big deer.  Without having any experience with them, I think I'd trust a .50 with a round ball but would trust a .54 even more.  A round ball is all that's needed for hunting.
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 6:41 am

@Marty wrote:
What a Face Wow.. you PRB guys really have my head spinning now on caliber selection Neutral

This is just me Personally, if i were gonna buy a rifle to Hunt with Patched Roundball i would go .50, or .54 Cal, When you Handle these little .440 Roundballs they are REALLY small, 128 Grains is not a very big chunk of lead, Shot Placement is obviously KEY, as with any Projectile! I am a hardcore Bullet Guy, and use to Big Lead, So These Roundballs look really Small to me

This is by no means a Fair Comparison, this is just to show how little my .440 Roundball is beside my Buffalo Arms Elliptical Bullet, Same 45 Caliber. This is 1 of my top long Range .45 Cal Bullets, this one is used extensively in BPCR to 1,000 Yards. 

The .440 Roundball is sure a Cute Little Thing! Very Happy It will no doubt be a Lot of Fun to Shoot! I am very much looking forward to it! 
PRB effectiveness on big game? BDRUPngl
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 8:06 am

@Idaholewis wrote:
My Dad lived in Alaska off n on through the 80s working in the Timber industry, Dad met lots of People there over the years, You will never guess What the Weapon of Choice for Locals that Poached their Moose Meat? It was the .22 Magnum! And of all places, They would shoot them behind the Front Shoulder just like you would a Big Magnum Centerfire, They would Drive off, Go get their Gear, and when they got back, Their Moose would be there close by! My Dad wasn’t involved in this, But He knew several guy’s there that did it, and was told it by MANY MANY locals, Dad said when they Told him what they used, they would wait for Dad to Call BS on them? But my Dad knew GOOD N WELL that the .22 Magnum was EXTREMELY Capable, He had ZERO reason to Doubt what they were Saying, My Dad had LOTS N LOTS of hands on Experience with the .22 Magnum. Dad spent 40 years of Hunting with Hound Dogs, His .22 Magnum was the Only Gun he used! 

Back on track With the OPs Question, The Data i provided Above Clearly shows the .36 Cal AKA “Squirrel Rifle” with Little 65 Grain Roundball Beating up on a .22 Magnum BADLY!! It is DOUBLE the Energy! Now think about all the .22 Magnum has done, and keeps on doing. 

A Roundball in it’s effective Range is no Doubt DEADLY!! It has proven itself OVER N OVER For Eons, There’s no disputing that. As I’ve said above, the Key is knowing any projectiles Effective Range, and Staying in that Range! If you start trying to Reach out past that Range, you are asking for Problems, and you are Being UNETHICAL! Everything i look at “Ballistically” 100 Yards should be your MAXIMUM Range with Patched Roundball, 50-75 Obviously being better. 
      The Big bullet on the other Hand stretches out several Hundred Yards. There is a Reason they use BIG 500-540 Grain Bullets to Compete in BPCR (Black Powder Cartridge) all the way out to 1,000 Yards, The BIG Bullets Keep Chugging along, A Roundball does NOT

In other words let the Bullet do its Job.

Here Poachers use regular .22 Long Rifle. 50 years ago seen a Whitetail Buck killed at 300 yards with a .22 Long Rifle out of a .22 Single Shot, Open Sights. just aimed 3 foot over his back.

Had to laugh at a Guy one time. Killed a Big Buck, the guy was going on and on how its neck was cut up from fighting.  Rolling Eyes  I took one look, someone had shot it several times with .22 in the Neck but because it was so swollen from rutting the .22 didn't have the effect it normally would.

oneshot
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Marty
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 8:33 am

When it comes to projectiles, my overall sense is you really only have two broad categories... the "PRB" and "everything else".  This has been/is a very interesting and helpful topic for discussion.  I've decided that a PRB smoker in .45 caliber is out to suit my overall future needs.   I think I'm also likely to have a better selection of traditional smokers with a bigger bore.  Keep the replies coming guys!
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 9:01 am

@Marty wrote:
When it comes to projectiles, my overall sense is you really only have two broad categories... the "PRB" and "everything else".  This has been/is a very interesting and helpful topic for discussion.  I've decided that a PRB smoker in .45 caliber is out to suit my overall future needs.   I think I'm also likely to have a better selection of traditional smokers with a bigger bore.  Keep the replies coming guys!

Marty, I'm obviously new to the whole PRB thing too, but as far as caliber goes... if you ever plan to hunt out west there are caliber restrictions as you mention.  You can't even use a .50 caliber PRB to hunt elk in Colorado right now due to the way they wrote the newest regulations.  It states "To hunt elk or moose round-ball bullets must be a minimum of .54 caliber".  I wouldn't doubt if they walk this one back, but who knows?  The muzzleloading lobby seems to have a very small voice with our CPW.  So... not sure what or where you might be hunting in the future but to avoid any issues you might strongly consider a .54 caliber?

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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 9:14 am

My son shot a Dall ram with a 50 PRB. The hit was obvious and some hair came off but the sheep went over a mile. He lost daylight. The next day he found the ram alive and moving. Since it had gone onto private property they asked permission and the person said they could go get it but "I don't want to hear any shooting". Somewhat perplexing, he spent the day getting close to it and shot it with a bow. The ball hit the shoulder and seemed to change direction along the scapular and did not cut a vital organ but did cause a lot of bleeding. The load was .490 PRB and 70 grains FFFg and the shot was 75-yards. This was a one-time incident and does not condemn the .50 PRB. However, my son pondered over and over whether 50 more grains of bullet weight or .004 diameter would have got through the shoulder.  No one will ever know exactly what happened of if something else would have made a difference that day. Regardless, he has switched to .54 PRB and 90 grains FFFg. To me, this is like the .22 Magnum that has been mentioned. It works a lot of the time. Maybe the majority of the time. Is it worth the risk for the one time it doesn't work? I guess somebody can come up with an instance where the .54 PRB (or .62+) didn't work right. You have to be comfortable that you have something that will work the majority of the time if you do everthing else right. Even then nothing is perfect 100% of the time when you are dealing with hunting conditions and wild animals.
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