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 PRB effectiveness on big game?

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CoHiCntry
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 9:53 am

@Sparkitoff wrote:
My son shot a Dall ram with a 50 PRB. The hit was obvious and some hair came off but the sheep went over a mile. He lost daylight. The next day he found the ram alive and moving. Since it had gone onto private property they asked permission and the person said they could go get it but "I don't want to hear any shooting". Somewhat perplexing, he spent the day getting close to it and shot it with a bow. The ball hit the shoulder and seemed to change direction along the scapular and did not cut a vital organ but did cause a lot of bleeding. The load was .490 PRB and 70 grains FFFg and the shot was 75-yards. This was a one-time incident and does not condemn the .50 PRB. However, my son pondered over and over whether 50 more grains of bullet weight or .004 diameter would have got through the shoulder.  No one will ever know exactly what happened of if something else would have made a difference that day. Regardless, he has switched to .54 PRB and 90 grains FFFg. To me, this is like the .22 Magnum that has been mentioned. It works a lot of the time. Maybe the majority of the time. Is it worth the risk for the one time it doesn't work? I guess somebody can come up with an instance where the .54 PRB (or .62+) didn't work right. You have to be comfortable that you have something that will work the majority of the time if you do everthing else right. Even then nothing is perfect 100% of the time when you are dealing with hunting conditions and wild animals.

Interesting story, thanks for posting!  Taking a Dall ram with a muzzleloader is a dream hunt for me.  Your right that nothing is perfect and in a hunting situation strange things can happen.  Hunt long enough or often enough and your chances of something happening like what you describe seems inevitable.  Certainly not a reason or excuse to be sloppy with shot selection or your setup, but like you said nothing is 100%.  We do everything in our power to make sure we have the correct setup and have practiced enough and take only shots we're certain of but even after all that, bad things can and will happen.

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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 9:57 am

I recorded this information given to me after testing by several friends.

http://sittingfox.tripod.com/articles/comparsions.black.powder.htm

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Marty
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 11:23 am

@CoHiCntry wrote:
@Marty wrote:
When it comes to projectiles, my overall sense is you really only have two broad categories... the "PRB" and "everything else".  This has been/is a very interesting and helpful topic for discussion.  I've decided that a PRB smoker in .45 caliber is out to suit my overall future needs.   I think I'm also likely to have a better selection of traditional smokers with a bigger bore.  Keep the replies coming guys!

Marty, I'm obviously new to the whole PRB thing too, but as far as caliber goes... if you ever plan to hunt out west there are caliber restrictions as you mention.  You can't even use a .50 caliber PRB to hunt elk in Colorado right now due to the way they wrote the newest regulations.  It states "To hunt elk or moose round-ball bullets must be a minimum of .54 caliber".  I wouldn't doubt if they walk this one back, but who knows?  The muzzleloading lobby seems to have a very small voice with our CPW.  So... not sure what or where you might be hunting in the future but to avoid any issues you might strongly consider a .54 caliber?
I seem to be tilting towards the .54 and be done with it.  I can't imagine shooting more than 60-70 yards at any big game I choose to stalk.
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FrontierGander
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 12:36 pm

Mountain men savored sheep meat as a treat. Big horns used to fall to these muzzle loaders with round ball. 

This popped up today on Facebook,  another perfect example of what the prb can do.
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Hanshi

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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 12:42 pm

That rifle looks so very tiny lying across that huge elk.  Nice gun and beautiful elk!
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Buck Conner
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 1:05 pm

@Hanshi wrote:
That rifle looks so very tiny lying across that huge elk.  Nice gun and beautiful elk!

That's not a huge elk, pretty much average, less than a 1,000 lbs.

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FrontierGander
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 1:13 pm

That's a great elk anyway you look at it.
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CoHiCntry
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 1:18 pm

@Buck Conner wrote:
@Hanshi wrote:
That rifle looks so very tiny lying across that huge elk.  Nice gun and beautiful elk!

That's not a huge elk, pretty much average, less than a 1,000 lbs.

Smallish rag horn or satellite bull.  In most units in Colorado I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger on it with a traditional muzzleloader!  Looks like possibly a Roosevelt with the dark horns along with the lush green grass around it?

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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 2:12 pm

@CoHiCntry wrote:

Smallish rag horn or satellite bull.  In most units in Colorado I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger on it with a traditional muzzleloader!  Looks like possibly a Roosevelt with the dark horns along with the lush green grass around it?

Use to see this size and color racks in Area 20 outside of Estes Park and north.  That's when you control yourself from pulling the trigger and start looking at the shadows and dark timber for a big boy laying back and watching the others.

When still hunting the late season (January) we were hunting for meat not horns (they take to long to boil down into anything edible).  headslap

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Hanshi

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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 2:39 pm

Small!?  Anything that weighs 1000 lbs is called a horse in my neck of the woods as long as it doesn't have horns.  Of course where I live now there are moose and those things can start approaching a ton.  I can just see myself trying to drag one of those out of the woods!  Seeing as the biggest things I've ever killed were 200 lbs deer, that elk is enormous in comparison.
Here is one a good friend of mine killed in Kentucky.  Not with a muzzleloader but still a great trophy.
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CoHiCntry
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 3:02 pm

I was referring to the rack.  They all have big bodies!  Even the cows are really big.  There's no "dragging" them out of the woods unless it's with some kind of machine like a 4-whlr or something, Lol!.  Quartered and packed out on your back is the method I'm most familiar with.  Although I have been able to gut and drag with a 4-whlr a few times over the years!

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CoHiCntry
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 3:16 pm

Here’s a cow I got this year. Notice how flat the terrain is?  This was a gut & drag.  It was on private property at our family cabin so didn't have to worry about legalities of using a 4-whlr off a designated trail. 
 PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 9d9aad10

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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 3:20 pm

Here's something to try, take a goat with a .62 caliber smoothbore, on a Once-In-A-Life-Time hunt in Colorado.

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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 3:26 pm

Took this picture a few years ago near Roosevelt Utah when heading to Doc White's place, always see game around there.

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CoHiCntry
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 3:26 pm

@Buck Conner wrote:
Here's something to try, take a goat with a .62 caliber smoothbore, on a Once-In-A-Life-Time hunt in Colorado.


Yeah, that would be quite an accomplishment!  I've got about 15 years worth of preference points in Colorado and maybe 12 points in Utah for Mountain Goat.  They are next on my list!  I've been able to draw, hunt and be successful on both Bighorn Sheep & Bull Moose here in Colorado.  The Mountain Goat will complete my "big 3".  It will probably be with a rifle though.  I'm to chicken to try with a lesser weapon and end up eating the tag after so many years to draw!  Who knows if you'll ever draw again and it's just to risky for me.  Maybe after I take all 3 with a rifle I'll try to go back and complete it with a muzzleloader?  Who knows?

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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 3:43 pm

Years ago on Mount Evans we had a nice size Mountain Goat decide he needed to rub his horns on the front fender of my 1968 Collector Series Silver Anniversary Corvette, like having someone run a rasp across the fiberglass fender. 

PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 Ha0416-250676_1
Collectors Show - Colo. Sprgs. CO  1999

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Hanshi

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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 3:51 pm

Now THAT big boy is truly a monster, body AND antlers.
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 3:57 pm

I started ML hunting in 1985 with a TC Renegade and Maxi-Ball. Did well, later switched to Lee Improved Minie for better accuracy.

After getting involved with some buckskinners started hunting with home cast 54 cal patched round balls in a left handed Leman replica. Developed some opinions, so here goes-

The PRB does not have the sectional density for anything but broadside or slightly angling in from the rear shots. Poor combination for shots angling in from the front, just doesn't have the power to break through a shoulder.

For me 100 yards is maximum range, and 75-80 yards is more responsible.

Many muleys and seven elk, all cows, traveled from 40-100 yards before expiring. All were dead by the time I got over the adrenaline, reloaded and walked to the game. These were shots placed behind the foreleg and a third of the way up from the belly line. Several balls were recovered under the hide on the far side.

My success improved when I started thinking and hunting like an archery hunter, but with twice the effective range. In other words, hunting from ambush.
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 4:33 pm

@CoHiCntry wrote:
I was referring to the rack.  They all have big bodies!  Even the cows are really big.  There's no "dragging" them out of the woods unless it's with some kind of machine like a 4-whlr or something, Lol!.  Quartered and packed out on your back is the method I'm most familiar with.  Although I have been able to gut and drag with a 4-whlr a few times over the years!

Know a Cow that was drug off a mountain in snow to a Pickup at the bottom.

oneshot
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CoHiCntry
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 4:52 pm

Quote :

Know a Cow that was drug off a mountain in snow to a Pickup at the bottom.

oneshot

Yep, a steep incline and snow is the great equalizer!

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Marty
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 6:28 pm

@White Fox wrote:
I started ML hunting in 1985 with a TC Renegade and Maxi-Ball. Did well, later switched to Lee Improved Minie for better accuracy.

After getting involved with some buckskinners started hunting with home cast 54 cal patched round balls in a left handed Leman replica. Developed some opinions, so here goes-

The PRB does not have the sectional density for anything but broadside or slightly angling in from the rear shots. Poor combination for shots angling in from the front, just doesn't have the power to break through a shoulder.

For me 100 yards is maximum range, and 75-80 yards is more responsible.

Many muleys and seven elk, all cows, traveled from 40-100 yards before expiring. All were dead by the time I got over the adrenaline, reloaded and walked to the game. These were shots placed behind the foreleg and a third of the way up from the belly line. Several balls were recovered under the hide on the far side.

My success improved when I started thinking and hunting like an archery hunter, but with twice the effective range. In other words, hunting from ambush.
Like most bowhunters I go for the lungs.  Are lung shots still a safe PRB target on elk?... I would think so.
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FrontierGander
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 8:26 pm

Yes lungs are always the way to go. I'm not a shoulder shot fan, even with big conical or even center fire. A huge waste of meat.
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BigAl52
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 12th 2019, 8:56 pm

Hey Marty. Want youre head to spin a little more. In the great State of Colorado no cal 50 round balls for Elk. But you can use a 40lb bow to sling some sticks at one.

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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 13th 2019, 6:23 am

Quote :
I'm not a shoulder shot fan, even with big conical or even center fire. A huge waste of meat.

i'm not a fan of shoulder shots either, too much meat wasted.
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Marty
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PostSubject: Re: PRB effectiveness on big game?   PRB effectiveness on big game? - Page 2 EmptyFebruary 13th 2019, 7:48 am

@BigAl52 wrote:
Hey Marty. Want youre head to spin a little more. In the great State of Colorado no cal 50 round balls for Elk. But you can use a 40lb bow to sling some sticks at one.
Hey BigAl52.  Want your head to spin a little more.  Check out these numbers on sectional density Arrow
SECTIONAL DENSITY =

bullet weight in grains/7000
Diameter X Diameter



SECTIONAL DENSITY---POWERBELT---ROUNDBALL
0.123________________175 g., .45cal.____________
0.138________________195 g., .45cal.____________
0.157________________223 g., .45cal.____________
0.159________________225 g., .45cal.____________
0.194________________275 g., .45cal.____________
0.212________________300 g., .45cal.____________
0.127________________223 g., .50cal.____________
0.140________________245 g., .50cal.____________
0.154________________270 g., .50cal.____________
0.169________________295 g., .50cal.____________
0.171________________300 g., .50cal.____________
0.193________________338 g., .50cal.____________
0.199________________348 g., .50cal.____________
0.231________________405 g., .50cal.____________
0.254________________444 g., .50cal.____________
0.145________________295 g., .54cal.____________
0.170________________348 g., .54cal.____________
0.198________________405 g., .54cal.____________
0.218________________444 g., .54cal.____________
0.090____________________________127 g., .45cal.
0.100____________________________175 g., .50cal.
0.113____________________________230 g., .54cal.


Section Density is purely the relationship between bullet weight and bullet diameter, and is independent of bullet shape. All else being equal, in theory the higher the Sectional Density value the greater the bullet penetration on game. (i.e., a 150 grain, .270 caliber bullet will provide better penetration than a 150 grain, .30 caliber bullet.)

Never underestimate the traditional bow.  My traditional wooden arrows weigh 540 grains.  Using my arrow shaft(11/32") diameter at 0.34375...
the Sectional Density of the arrow projectile is 0.653.
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