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 Recovered Indian Rifle

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FrontierGander
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FrontierGander

Male Number of posts : 16283
Age : 35
Location : Boncarbo,Colorado
Registration date : 2008-05-19

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PostSubject: Recovered Indian Rifle   Recovered Indian Rifle EmptyFebruary 28th 2019, 12:22 pm

Saw this on facebook and thought i'd share! Pretty damn awesome.

"Recovered Derringer Indian rifle. Items found with gun, Indian made lead bullet mold and bullets, gun flints, trade beads and scissors. The two front ramrod pipes still had wood in them."
Recovered Indian Rifle 53176110
Recovered Indian Rifle 52820210
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Marty
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Marty

Male Number of posts : 3725
Age : 63
Location : Massachusetts
Registration date : 2009-02-03

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PostSubject: Re: Recovered Indian Rifle   Recovered Indian Rifle EmptyFebruary 28th 2019, 1:25 pm

Cool pic.  The one thing that got my attention was the lock.  It looks like the movable parts are REALLY fused together.  
Any date on this artifact Question
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heelerau

heelerau

Male Number of posts : 171
Age : 58
Location : Western Australia
Registration date : 2018-02-08

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PostSubject: Re: Recovered Indian Rifle   Recovered Indian Rifle EmptyFebruary 28th 2019, 1:53 pm

Would like to know the details of how it was found. Interesting story about another long rifle recovered from a cave near Vernal in the 1930s. the rifle was complete, I think it was a cave burial.

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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

Male Number of posts : 3395
Age : 79
Location : UT
Registration date : 2015-10-20

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PostSubject: Re: Recovered Indian Rifle   Recovered Indian Rifle EmptyMarch 3rd 2019, 12:16 pm

Looks more like an another maker Jonathan. Look at the trigger guard shape along with lock, thimbles and butt plate.  Could be a H.E. Leman Indian Trade Rifle of the 1840's-50's. On these rifles you will find a number of different patch boxes.

Recovered Indian Rifle Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHWIEZkzpsCQKHE4-d0QKuE9TBdxySU35BqB4__iLc9PktaP3g

Recovered Indian Rifle 2Q==
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msellers



Number of posts : 11
Age : 34
Location : NE Nevada
Registration date : 2019-02-16

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PostSubject: Re: Recovered Indian Rifle   Recovered Indian Rifle EmptyMarch 10th 2019, 9:37 pm

Thanks for posting this, i am needing a patch box pattern for a build along these lines. Hopefully I can get some time to work on it. 
Mike
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plmeek



Number of posts : 7
Age : 65
Location : Denver area
Registration date : 2016-03-11

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PostSubject: Re: Recovered Indian Rifle   Recovered Indian Rifle EmptyMarch 13th 2019, 3:23 pm

@Buck Conner wrote:
Looks more like an another maker Jonathan. Look at the trigger guard shape along with lock, thimbles and butt plate.  Could be a H.E. Leman Indian Trade Rifle of the 1840's-50's. On these rifles you will find a number of different patch boxes.

Buck,

I think that is probably a Deringer rifle, not a Leman.  That patch box pattern is Deringer's "ghost" finial, which is second most common to his "eagle" finial.

I looked up the posting on Facebook, and the pictures were posted by William Basco who is a serious collector of Indian guns.  He would know a Deringer from a Leman.  The comments on the Facebook post said the artifacts were found in the ground with a metal detector.  The bullet mold, which itself is made of lead, seemed to attract the most comments.  Basco showed pictures of halves of two other lead bullet molds that were recovered in the South.

A significant number of Deringer rifles went to Indians in the South prior to their removal to Indian Territory in the 1830s.  Relic Deringer rifles have been found in the South and in Oklahoma.

Henry Deringer made Indian trade rifles for the Office of Indian Trade and the Bureau of Indian Affairs from 1809 to 1837.  This rifle would likely date to the later part of that period.

Here is a picture of a couple contemporary Deringer rifles made by Jack Brooks.  Jack built these with the more common "eagle" patch box.
Recovered Indian Rifle IMG-4714-low-res
Recovered Indian Rifle IMG-4720-low-res

Just a little more on William Basco.  The book shown below has pictures of guns and artifacts from his collection. 

This is a very interesting book about the decorations on English trade guns.  It connects these decorations to the art history in Europe from the Greeks and Romans through medieval heraldry and Christian symbols all the way up to 17th and 18th century royal iconography.  It provides the best treatment on the origins of the dragon side plate I have read as well as fully explaining all the decorations on Chief's Grade guns.

Recovered Indian Rifle 978-0-7864-7115-7
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