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 It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader

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Sparkitoff



Number of posts : 211
Age : 72
Location : NC
Registration date : 2018-06-08

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PostSubject: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 7:33 am

This is getting comical. Some of you may recall I was invited to deer hunt but when I said I was bringing my flintlock the invitation was revoked.

Here this happened yet again!  I was invited to hunt Aoudad and told they were seeing between 6 and 10 in the same area every day. We agreed on the dates and price. The outfitter said "being a big rifle because these are hard to put down". I said "no problem, I will use one of my .54 calibers".  He laughed. Then he said "seriously, what caliber is it". I said, ".54 and a muzzleloader". Well I got a lecture about how most people need more than one shot, shots are long range and I need more power than a muzzleloader. 

I asked what was the smallest caliber he thought I could get away with. He says "You ought to have at least a 30-30". He may have noticed me rolling my eyes. I said, "Sir, I can hit an animal out to 150-yards and have done so several times. The projectile has more "power" than a lot of modern rifles at closer ranges and has taken bigger, tougher animals than an Aoudad further out". He said, "Okay we will have to try to get close and maybe I will bring a back-up rifle". 

Before I made it home my phone is ringing. The outfitter says he thought about it and talked it over with some other people and doesn't think it is a good idea. Okee Dokee, cancel that hunt, I won't be coming. I invited him to hunt Aoudad on my ranch with any one of my .54 rifles for free so he could learn something. He says he has no interest in shooting an "obsolete rifle".  NEXT...……! Rolling Eyes
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OldMtnMan

OldMtnMan

Male Number of posts : 10400
Age : 76
Location : Buena Vista, Colorado
Registration date : 2010-09-23

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 7:54 am

What do you use for a load?
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Sparkitoff



Number of posts : 211
Age : 72
Location : NC
Registration date : 2018-06-08

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 9:07 am

In three different rifles, one flintlock and two percussion I use 80g FFFg, .530 PRB. In 2 and 100g in the other. The 3 have different barrel lengths and so the velocities are slightly different. 1734fps, 1776 fps 1789 fps respectively. I was willing to use my 4th .54 caliber that is 1:24" ROT and shoots a 535gr conical at 1488 fps.  All of them are 3.5" or better at 100-yards (off the bench). I have a herd of Aoudad on my place but none as big as this guy.  I don't like to hunt on my own place and definitely would like my rams to grow bigger.
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

Male Number of posts : 3448
Age : 79
Location : UT
Registration date : 2015-10-20

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 9:18 am

His insurance company probably has a statement about liabilities and what is or isn't covered. He wouldn't tell you that if its the case per his agent.

Several of the places we hunt with muzzleloaders (private ranches) have such issues (most will not tell you. One close friend said this is why they have a release agreement), we just have to sign a release of responsibility to meet what is needed to hunt with our firearms.

Depending on the animal size is the issue I have been told. When you tell them of taking animals as big as 2000 lb. plus buffalo or even adult moose showing pictures, they just raise their eye brows. One insurance guy asked about a second shot?  I told him you either have a second rifle loaded or a backup shooter, no comment.

It's like anything else you hunt - it's all about bullet (ball) placement.

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Last edited by Buck Conner on March 22nd 2019, 9:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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OldMtnMan

OldMtnMan

Male Number of posts : 10400
Age : 76
Location : Buena Vista, Colorado
Registration date : 2010-09-23

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 9:22 am

I wouldn't ever use a guide but I think they prefer to have the clients take longer shots. It's a lot easier for the guide than getting close.

He probably felt the muzzleloader couldn't take those long shots.

I love getting close but I hunt alone and that makes getting close easier.
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Sparkitoff



Number of posts : 211
Age : 72
Location : NC
Registration date : 2018-06-08

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 9:33 am

In Texas there are no "Guides" as far as a license or regulation. The competency and effectiveness of a "guide" here depends on their personal experiences, any other formal training, familiarization with the ranch and other factors. I am a retired Professional Hunter (both licensed in several US States as a "Guide" and licensed in S. Africa in several provinces).  I don't need any help really but it is not my property and this is how things are done in TX - so when in Rome.....!  But the lack of understanding with muzzleloaders is growing and I attribute that to the new generations that just don't have any experience with traditional hunting implements. It is not uncommon for a bowhunter to be refused based on circumstances (primarily for exotic hunting). Lack of confidence in getting within bow range is somewhat understandable, but a rifle?  Oh, well.  I have killed Aoudad before and will do so again. Meanwhile, I will go hunt something else. Year-round hunting is a nice privilege in this State. When it gets too hot, I will go back to N.C.
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OldMtnMan

OldMtnMan

Male Number of posts : 10400
Age : 76
Location : Buena Vista, Colorado
Registration date : 2010-09-23

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 9:44 am

I mentioned that I wouldn't use a guide so you'd know I really don't know much about them.

I don't really care what others do. That's their business.

I made an assumption on the long shots based on talking to those who do use guides. They always use scoped rifles and take long shots.

 My personal opinion on long shots is most are made by those who can shoot well but aren't good at getting close. Just my opinion.
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

Male Number of posts : 3448
Age : 79
Location : UT
Registration date : 2015-10-20

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 9:49 am

The owner hears "muzzleloader" - "black powder" and thinks "old antique" and writes you off.  Being uneducated about "black powder" they don't realize this powder was used for centuries, even as late as the beginning of WWII.

Interesting note: 

Wikipedia:  Battleship main guns technically stopped developing effectively in the mid 1930’s. Primarily cause was chamber pressure. Modern nitrocellulose propellants created far to much pressure for a reasonably designed 14″ or 16″ gun chamber to handle. Sure, it could have been done, but why? The black powder was more than enough to do the job, and was far safer in the combat environment. It was also a known commodity and much easier to produce in the large quantities needed while the nitro-based propellants could be used in rifle bullets, etc.

Also note: these large caliber weapons do not use sealed cases. The powder was bagged and loaded separately. I’m not 100% certain but handling nitrocellulose based powders in this fashion seems like a very hazardous thing indeed, far more dangerous than traditional black powder. So there was a crew safety issue was well.

Gunpowder is no longer used in modern weapons, nor is it used for industrial purposes, due to its relatively inefficient cost compared to newer alternatives such as dynamite and ammonium nitrate/fuel oil. Today gunpowder firearms are limited primarily to hunting, target shooting, and bulletless historical reenactments.

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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

Male Number of posts : 3448
Age : 79
Location : UT
Registration date : 2015-10-20

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 10:01 am

@Sparkitoff wrote:
.... and I attribute that to the new generations that just don't have any experience with traditional hunting implements. 

When we go to a public range (safest place for even ground for the wife's issues with her MS) we see all ages.  I bring out a few muzzleloaders for testing (usually one or two new GRRW.CA guns and one or two others). The older guys are interested in them while the younger generation wouldn't take the time to even look and are not willing to even shoot one.  To the new generation its all about fire power, fast reloads with large capacity magazines and holding the guns on their sides to shoot. (movie crap).   Evil or Very Mad

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It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader Camp

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Last edited by Buck Conner on March 22nd 2019, 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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OldMtnMan

OldMtnMan

Male Number of posts : 10400
Age : 76
Location : Buena Vista, Colorado
Registration date : 2010-09-23

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 10:03 am

Do you see an image, Buck?
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

Male Number of posts : 3448
Age : 79
Location : UT
Registration date : 2015-10-20

It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader Empty
PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 10:10 am

@OldMtnMan wrote:
Do you see an image, Buck?

?  

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OldMtnMan

OldMtnMan

Male Number of posts : 10400
Age : 76
Location : Buena Vista, Colorado
Registration date : 2010-09-23

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 10:12 am

I don't see any images you post.
  
Maybe that's just your sig?
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

Male Number of posts : 3448
Age : 79
Location : UT
Registration date : 2015-10-20

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 10:14 am

@OldMtnMan wrote:
I don't see any images you post.

Yes, the host that I was using started loosing everyone's pictures ??? I will have to try another service ....

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Firestick

Firestick

Male Number of posts : 109
Age : 62
Location : Wyoming
Registration date : 2019-02-18

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 12:25 pm

To many today want to shoot and not HUNT. More and more fail to learn the habits of the animals they pursue. It's about acting the sniper in the hunting field it seems. It is especially true in the bowhunting world with the modern compounds and crossbows. Faster bows and lighter arrows to shoot farther and farther. Most made fun of my longbow and big old broadheads you had to sharpen by hand. A traditional BP rifle is plenty lethal under the conditions it was meant for. I would not be afraid to hunt elk with a .50 cal. I'd just know I would have to HUNT and get close enough for the RB to do it job. May you have better luck with the next "outfitter".
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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

Male Number of posts : 3448
Age : 79
Location : UT
Registration date : 2015-10-20

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 22nd 2019, 12:33 pm

There has been many elk, moose and buffalo go down with a .50 caliber muzzleloader in the past and in our time.  

Like said a thousand times before by our forefather's and guys today "shot placement" is the name of the game.  :Grace

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oneshot 1

oneshot 1

Number of posts : 605
Age : 65
Location : Missouri
Registration date : 2012-04-23

It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader Empty
PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 23rd 2019, 7:20 pm

I shot a Boar Hog with 50Cal. it was running for me I was reloading. It dropped in front of me.  Guy was up the hill getting way more excited than me.

oneshot
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fatcat3

fatcat3

Number of posts : 3
Age : 56
Location : north east
Registration date : 2016-03-29

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 25th 2019, 2:53 am

you guys are a lot nicer than i would have been.  30-30 indeed.  that would have twisted my tail to the point that i would have told him that if he didn't want my $ that was fine by me and i would do all that i could to see that he didn't get anyone's $ if i could do anything about it.  and then got off my lazzy tail and told every one that i could about it, call the b.b.b., anyone connected with  licencing outfitters, guides, and any thing else i could think of.
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hunting savage



Number of posts : 170
Age : 72
Location : southern Mi
Registration date : 2014-05-03

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 25th 2019, 4:35 pm

THIS IS TRUE fatcat3
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heelerau

heelerau

Male Number of posts : 173
Age : 58
Location : Western Australia
Registration date : 2018-02-08

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 25th 2019, 4:48 pm

Here in Western Australia, you for a while could not license a muzzle loader for hunting. I got my .40 cal on open license before this change occurred. It was considered that a muzzle loader was inadequate and a follow up shot would take to long and prolong the animals suffering. Fortunately this police regulation has recently been changed back.  I spoke to a New Zealand deer hunting safari outfit about using my .40 flintlock for deer , and it was not an issue, albeit an unusual request for them by they were willing to oblige. I have met plenty of shooters who would not touch a muzzle loader, I guess they were brought up on erroneous tales of guns blowing up and general innaccuracy. More fool them.

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Buck Conner
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Buck Conner

Male Number of posts : 3448
Age : 79
Location : UT
Registration date : 2015-10-20

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMarch 25th 2019, 7:19 pm

@heelerau wrote:
I have met plenty of shooters who would not touch a muzzle loader, I guess they were brought up on erroneous tales of guns blowing up and general innaccuracy. More fool them.

If you readin history there are many many accounts of muzzle loaders (military and civilian muzzle loaders having issues such as this). Many were caused my mud, snow or another obstruction in the barrels, (probably over loading in the heat of battle could be included also).  

For accuracy the longest shot before current wars was done during the American Civil War (a Union Officer would have his evening libations every evening at the encampments fire after dinner. Done just as the sun was starting to set). The southern boys took note of this daily event and a sniper was raised in a tree over 450 yards away several times to get his sights adjusted then tested else where. By the way 450 yard is over a 1/4 of a mile. Once satisfied, one evening he was ready. The Union Officer started to be seated then changed his mind with a another lower ranking officer taking his place about the time the bullet was on route, that man died not the original man it was intended for.  

Oh, 450 yards was unheard of up and until the Vietnam War and Carlos Hathcock produced 93 confirmed kills of North Vietnamese Army and Viet-Cong personnel, 2,500 yards was his longest kill.  2,500 yards = 1.420455 of a mile or 1.420 miles, 2500 yards X 3 '/yd = 7500'.   Shooter

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CVA Enthusiast



Number of posts : 43
Age : 49
Location : Kentucky
Registration date : 2018-09-18

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyApril 22nd 2019, 3:33 pm



@heelerau wrote:I have met plenty of shooters who would not touch a muzzle loader, I guess they were brought up on erroneous tales of guns blowing up and general innaccuracy. More fool them.
This was me I followed those before me, they said pipe bombs incapable of printing on paper with accuracy, I tried one printed 5 inch group at 100 all the while laughing like a madman then I got another and smaller groups followed with different loads all the while chuckling like an insane nut, then I got a 3rd and after finding its "Meal" at 200 yards it gives a fine print of 5 shots 3 inch group....While I laugh and chuckle like an insane nutz madman one evening a fellow shooter asks Why Laughing? Man that is an awesome group, I show the percussion rifle I was using and the bottom jaw hits the boots, And well there I go again laughing, chuckling, snickering.....
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Silent Walker

Silent Walker

Number of posts : 18
Age : 63
Location : MT - Montana
Registration date : 2019-04-21

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMay 4th 2019, 5:28 am

Up here where I live, there is so much public land.... Montana Public Land 

I'll be hunting this year, with my Lyman Great Planes Rifle .54 cal PBR load... stalk and sit, and just wait.  I've never used an outfitter here in Montana, don't want to, but to each his own.  I feel for you down in Texas, where there is more private land than public, and you are at the whims of those in control of the hunting.

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"Rust Never Sleeps"
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Mad Irish Jack ODonnell

Mad Irish Jack ODonnell

Male Number of posts : 41
Age : 71
Location : McDonald (Allegheny Co) PA
Registration date : 2016-02-11

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMay 4th 2019, 3:18 pm

I've been to outdoor sports shows in Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, PA. Talked to (15 to 20) guides from places in CO, ID, NM and WY. (Buffalo, Elk, Muley, Pronghorns) All said they don't guide hunters with muzzleloaders, Old or new models. They said much the same, Insurance reasons, dependability and reliability of the weapons. I asked if they'd ever shot them, and NOT ONE had, and all say they have no desire to.. I put it into the "Their Lose" Column. Just my flinter count on Whitetails is 17 bucks, 20 doe. I only have 8 unfilled PA tags, & 1 WV tag, over the 50 years of traversing the PA woods and fields. After that many years and the advent of the multiple tags, that's a lot of hunting and success. Some of the unfilled are the third of multi tags. I won't kill an animal that won't be utilized.
   How does the second shot with a bow or crossbow work faster than an accomplished flintlock hunters abilities with his weapon. The guys who also reenact can shoot, & reload smoothbores and fire Three rounds a minute. Mouths shut, Please. I've fired and reloaded and fired to  hit my second 100 yard target in 40 seconds at rondy. It's common IF you're practiced.
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LongRifle



Male Number of posts : 34
Age : 40
Location : Larimer County, Colorado
Registration date : 2019-04-23

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMay 5th 2019, 12:14 pm

@Mad Irish Jack ODonnell wrote:
I've been to outdoor sports shows in Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, PA. Talked to (15 to 20) guides from places in CO, ID, NM and WY. (Buffalo, Elk, Muley, Pronghorns) All said they don't guide hunters with muzzleloaders, Old or new models. They said much the same, Insurance reasons, dependability and reliability of the weapons. I asked if they'd ever shot them, and NOT ONE had, and all say they have no desire to.. I put it into the "Their Lose" Column. Just my flinter count on Whitetails is 17 bucks, 20 doe. I only have 8 unfilled PA tags, & 1 WV tag, over the 50 years of traversing the PA woods and fields. After that many years and the advent of the multiple tags, that's a lot of hunting and success. Some of the unfilled are the third of multi tags. I won't kill an animal that won't be utilized.
   How does the second shot with a bow or crossbow work faster than an accomplished flintlock hunters abilities with his weapon. The guys who also reenact can shoot, & reload smoothbores and fire Three rounds a minute. Mouths shut, Please. I've fired and reloaded and fired to  hit my second 100 yard target in 40 seconds at rondy. It's common IF you're practiced.
 
      America has fallen to magnumitus where everyone in the woods seems to think you need a magnum center fire going mach 9 to harvest an animal.  Most of this is due to social media and TV where the armchair hunter buys into the idea that only the newest latest and greatest firearm, space-bullet and hubble-space rifle scope will get the job done because the scripted hunter shooting an elk on a high-fence game reserve uses them.

     I live in Colorado, and because some dumb-ass decided to put a regulation for energy on impact and a projectile minimum weight, they changed our ML rules last year and we now cannot use a .50PRB to shoot elk, yet they will let inexperienced hunters use a .243 and a 100gr bullet to harvest them or even a bow with an arrow, but for some reason, a .50PRB can't do the job?  Ridiculous at best.

     99% of all hunting goods that are sold are more to catch the hunter's eye and have them spend their money, rather than serving a purpose. Let's take fancy camo.  Sure, I have some for coyote hunting- bought it at a yard sale for cheap.  But buying it new, no way in hell.  Waste of money.  I have watched a bow hunter in brown carhart pants and a green and brown flannel shirt harvest deer, elk and even a coyote within 25yards.  Don't tell me that the new snake-skin, ultra HD camo makes you invisible.  Being a good hunter makes you invisible, not the camo you are wearing.  This true for firearms and optics also.  How is it that we can take a long, iron-sighted, wood and iron smoke pole into the woods and harvest animals, but the guy with the completely camo sniper rifle and  25x scope cannot?  Confuses me to no end.  

      The idea that muzzleloaders are inferior to modern firearms is laughable. With a skilled marksman behind one, I would put my money on them harvesting a critter before the bubba-couch weekend hunter with a .338LM.  Maybe the guides need to see the positives of a muzzle loader.  I have one round.  My reload will take longer.  So I will take my time and make sure that I can make a good clean kill.  This is in stark contrast to guided hunts where I have seen hunters shoot elk 3-4 times with a 7mmREM-mag because their first two shots were ill placed.

      So any guide who will not allow a muzzleloader is more worried about their image and how they look on social media rather than the animal that is being hunted or providing a quality hunt to a hunter.  They should not be employed in the business they are in.
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Silent Walker

Silent Walker

Number of posts : 18
Age : 63
Location : MT - Montana
Registration date : 2019-04-21

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PostSubject: Re: It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader   It happened again - refused to let me hunt with muzzleloader EmptyMay 10th 2019, 7:53 am

LongRifle when their mind is already made up, it's hard to change it.  I completely agree with what you said on this magnumitus thing.  I know a guy who is convinced his 300 Winchester Short Mag is going to kill better than a 30-06 at 100 yards, and he has yet to harvest anything in the last 4 years.  We can only try to educate the polluted minds, of those infected by magnumitus wiz bang shooters.
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