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 Why I still like 777 over Real Black

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Hylander

Hylander

Male Number of posts : 235
Age : 57
Location : CALIFORNIA
Registration date : 2017-11-07

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyMarch 24th 2019, 6:50 pm

Rifle: T/C Hawken with .54 Cal. rebore by Robert.
Balls: 530 Speer
Patch: .020 Duck, lubed with 50/50 Mutton Tallow/Olive Oil.
70-80gr. Powder 

So I have not used real black for over 20 years, I know Blasphemy  Shocked
What I use to use was Elephant, however I do not remember this bad of an issue.
Anyway, I came into a pound of Schuetzen FF.
I can't even get a second loading without swabbing.
Well, I can get a second loading but my wrist's can't take the pounding, almost can't get the second load all the way down.
With 777 I can get at least 8-12 loadings before a swabbing is necessary.
When swabbing the patch is caked in thick crud left behind after firing, with 777 it is just light crud left behind.
With the real black I also get the crud ring down just before the ball seats, I do not get this with 777.
Also Accuracy is more consistent. 
I really want to like real black but so far I just see no benefit other than price.

_________________
Failure is not an option.
T/C Hawken 50 Cal.
T/C Hawken 54 Cal. Rebore
Pietta 1858 .44 with 45 Colt Conversion
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FrontierGander
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FrontierGander

Male Number of posts : 16313
Age : 35
Location : Boncarbo,Colorado
Registration date : 2008-05-19

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyMarch 24th 2019, 6:56 pm

Most likely from rough rifling. I've had rifles like that to and after running 10 shots of my shoot out lube, no problem. Its just an odd thing with different powders and how the rougher bores affect them.
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Hylander

Hylander

Male Number of posts : 235
Age : 57
Location : CALIFORNIA
Registration date : 2017-11-07

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyMarch 24th 2019, 7:07 pm

I will try lapping the bore, I have about 50 rounds down the tube so far.
The thing I really like about the barrel so far is all my patches could be used again.
I'll hit the bore with a tight patch and valve lapping compound followed by Flitz 
followed by JB bore paste.

_________________
Failure is not an option.
T/C Hawken 50 Cal.
T/C Hawken 54 Cal. Rebore
Pietta 1858 .44 with 45 Colt Conversion
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Hylander

Hylander

Male Number of posts : 235
Age : 57
Location : CALIFORNIA
Registration date : 2017-11-07

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyMarch 24th 2019, 11:55 pm

I just finished lapping the bore.
Will see how it shoots tomorrow or the next day.

_________________
Failure is not an option.
T/C Hawken 50 Cal.
T/C Hawken 54 Cal. Rebore
Pietta 1858 .44 with 45 Colt Conversion
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N.Y. Yankee



Number of posts : 23
Age : 51
Location : New York
Registration date : 2019-01-11

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 9th 2019, 4:38 pm

i too have found a lot less fouling with 777 than with Goex. I can load 6 shots easily without swabbing. Probably could do more but haven't tried yet. What I didn't realize though was how much more pressure there was in the same volume of 777.
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OldMtnMan

OldMtnMan

Male Number of posts : 10394
Age : 76
Location : Buena Vista, Colorado
Registration date : 2010-09-23

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 10th 2019, 7:20 am

Yes, modern sub powders will be better than real black. That's the whole point of making them.

However. if you use them you're giving up on the whole idea of being a traditional muzzleloader.

_________________
Pete

I'm addicted to black powder.
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FrontierGander
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FrontierGander

Male Number of posts : 16313
Age : 35
Location : Boncarbo,Colorado
Registration date : 2008-05-19

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 10th 2019, 11:27 am

About the only sub that's better than black powder is blackhorn209.
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OldMtnMan

OldMtnMan

Male Number of posts : 10394
Age : 76
Location : Buena Vista, Colorado
Registration date : 2010-09-23

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 10th 2019, 1:55 pm

@FrontierGander wrote:
About the only sub that's better than black powder is blackhorn209.
Which is really smokeless powder detuned.

As we both know black powder is stinky, low powered, and fouls a lot. However, it's what our forefathers used and what should be used by anybody who wants to replicate what the sidelock was designed to use.

_________________
Pete

I'm addicted to black powder.
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Dusty hunter



Number of posts : 3
Age : 71
Location : Upstate NY
Registration date : 2019-08-09

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 10th 2019, 2:40 pm

@FrontierGander wrote:
About the only sub that's better than black powder is blackhorn209.

Could you explain your view?  I have a 30-year-old TC 54 Cal with a low round throw the barrel . I have read a little   About Blackhorn 209 unsure if it is safe for my rifle?
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OldMtnMan

OldMtnMan

Male Number of posts : 10394
Age : 76
Location : Buena Vista, Colorado
Registration date : 2010-09-23

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 10th 2019, 4:13 pm

@Dusty hunter wrote:
@FrontierGander wrote:
About the only sub that's better than black powder is blackhorn209.

Could you explain your view?  I have a 30-year-old TC 54 Cal with a low round throw the barrel . I have read a little   About Blackhorn 209 unsure if it is safe for my rifle?
 You probably couldn't get BH 209 to fire in a sidelock without converting it to using 209 primers.

Which is why it called what it is. It's really made for inline muzzleloaders.

_________________
Pete

I'm addicted to black powder.
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N.Y. Yankee



Number of posts : 23
Age : 51
Location : New York
Registration date : 2019-01-11

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 12th 2019, 8:11 am

"However. if you use them you're giving up on the whole idea of being a traditional muzzleloader." 
Well, I wouldn't say that really. I don't think anybody really cares or did care what the powder was made of. You pour it out of a horn into an antler measure down the bore of a (probably) milled steel barrel and set it off with a rock lock or a cap. Who's gonna ask what kind it was and ask you to leave if it's not charcoal? Kinda defeats the purpose eh? We want more shooters, not less. It's all just GUNPOWDER
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Renegadehunter

Renegadehunter

Male Number of posts : 88
Age : 46
Location : Idaho
Registration date : 2018-10-12

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 12th 2019, 10:14 am

Hylander, you could try a bit thinner patch thickness and see if it loads any better and groups are still acceptable.  Also 3f has quite a bit less fouling than 2f when I use it in my .54.  I always swab between shots, but I do so because my rifle will throw them everywhere if I don't no matter how tight of a patch I try using to maintain consistent fouling.  I can get two shots without swabbing and then groups go to hell.

Schuetzen is what I've been using too, it's about the same as Goex in my experience.  My TC prefers 75 grains of 2f and 80 grains of 3f in my testing, with an .018" pillow ticking patch.  I do realize yours has been rebored, but thought I'd mention it anyway.
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Hylander

Hylander

Male Number of posts : 235
Age : 57
Location : CALIFORNIA
Registration date : 2017-11-07

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 12th 2019, 10:29 am

Renegadehunter:

Tried varying things but still a lot of fouling.
The old Elephant I used to use did not foul this much.

Oldmtnman:
I don't think just using a different powder is giving up on traditional muzzle loading.
Look at how everyone uses patch lubes that were not available back in the day.
Like using petroleum based products for lube and cleaning.
I still keep and shoot real black occasionally.

_________________
Failure is not an option.
T/C Hawken 50 Cal.
T/C Hawken 54 Cal. Rebore
Pietta 1858 .44 with 45 Colt Conversion
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OldMtnMan

OldMtnMan

Male Number of posts : 10394
Age : 76
Location : Buena Vista, Colorado
Registration date : 2010-09-23

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 12th 2019, 11:24 am

Usually, the type that will only use black powder will also use natural animal tallow for patch lube. Then clean with plain water.

We can't do everything like our forefathers. Otherwise, we'd be just riding horses/mules instead of driving cars/trucks. We can do everything dealing with shooting and cleaning the guns.

It all depends on how serious we are with being 100% traditional or just part of it. Different strokes and all that.

_________________
Pete

I'm addicted to black powder.
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Idaholewis

Idaholewis

Number of posts : 447
Age : 46
Location : North Idaho
Registration date : 2019-01-11

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 18th 2019, 6:59 am

@OldMtnMan wrote:
@Dusty hunter wrote:
@FrontierGander wrote:
About the only sub that's better than black powder is blackhorn209.

Could you explain your view?  I have a 30-year-old TC 54 Cal with a low round throw the barrel . I have read a little   About Blackhorn 209 unsure if it is safe for my rifle?
 You probably couldn't get BH 209 to fire in a sidelock without converting it to using 209 primers.

Which is why it called what it is. It's really made for inline muzzleloaders.

The few times i have Shot Triple 7 i was impressed with it for accuracy, Not so much on the “Infamous” Crud Ring it leaves behind Though, With Dry Paper Patch Bullets the T7 Crud Ring was HORRID, and that was with No. 11 Caps. I literally had to back up and RAM the Crud Ring a few times with a Wet Patch to get through it. It worked MUCH better with my Grease Groove Bullets, I could see me Shooting more T7 in the Future. But with Swiss Real Black available right next to me, I don’t see any reason to mess with anything else

 My experience with BH209 on the other hand wasn’t good at all, I quickly learned to DESPISE that Crap! It won’t Reliably ignite unless there is X Amount of Loading Pressure (Even then, I Personally would NEVER trust it after seeing what i did, on a Hunt anyway) My first try with BH209 was in my New Knight Mountaineer, Why not shoot the Best Modern Powder available in a High Tec Modern Muzzleloader right? That was my thinking anyway. Everyone knows i use, and SWEAR By 1/8” Wool Felt OP Wads, and for Target ONLY Shooting i shoot “Slip Fit” Bullets, They Go Down the Bore with Minimum, to no Help, My Range Rod ALONE is Enough Weight to push them Down (I was taught this by WORLD Champion Shooters) I have been Loading my TARGET Bullets this way from my VERY BEGINNING in Muzzleloading.

 Anyway, I load up my New Mountaineer, Charge of BH209, a Wool Felt Wad, and a “Slip Fit” Bullet. I settle in and Squeeze the Trigger, The Primer went off but didn’t set the Charge off? How can the Spark from a 209 Shotgun Primer Go through a Powder Charge and not set it off? Regardless of Loading Pressure? (My mind is ALL around Real Blackpowder) I checked the Bullet with my Rod, Pushed it Back Down on the Powder, Settled back in and Squeezed the Shot off, That time my Bullet “POOPED” Out the Barrel about 15 Yards, Hit the Old i was in, and Rolled Down a Tire Track  lol! I sat there thinking, Did i just see that happen?? lol! I turned my Rifle up and Popped off 2 More Primers trying to Blow the Wad and Powder Charge out, The 2nd 209 Did the Job, My Powder Charge Trickled out on the Ground. Luckily i had Some Tight fitting Vege Fibre Wads with me, I was able to get My Shots off, But even then i had Misfires. NO MORE BH209 for this Guy! EVER
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Idaholewis

Idaholewis

Number of posts : 447
Age : 46
Location : North Idaho
Registration date : 2019-01-11

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 18th 2019, 7:23 am

Here is the Best use i found for BH209 :rtup It even Hungfired with a Lighter Very Happy But, i look at it on the Bright side, this was it’s LAST Hangfire with me

Why I still like 777 over Real Black 7-BA88-BE1-5084-4-A9-F-8-DF5-123-CAA86-C924
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Dusty hunter



Number of posts : 3
Age : 71
Location : Upstate NY
Registration date : 2019-08-09

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 18th 2019, 9:26 am

I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their input on the subject of powders.  I’m now convinced that I will stick with   Pyrodex , like a wise man once told me Jim if it’s not broke don’t fix it !
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FrontierGander
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FrontierGander

Male Number of posts : 16313
Age : 35
Location : Boncarbo,Colorado
Registration date : 2008-05-19

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 18th 2019, 11:58 am

I've shot 70lbs of bh209 over the years and it's the best for today's inline. I don't shoot much inline these days so bh209 is no longer in stock.
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Hylander

Hylander

Male Number of posts : 235
Age : 57
Location : CALIFORNIA
Registration date : 2017-11-07

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 18th 2019, 4:00 pm

I try to use as much traditional as I can.
I make my own patches/wads/lube, lube is pure mutton tallow and bees wax.
Just the only real black around here is Goex and I can't stand Goex.
Maybe i'll try to make my own sometime.
Still trying to figure out this infamous crud rind, never seen or experienced one
with any powder.

_________________
Failure is not an option.
T/C Hawken 50 Cal.
T/C Hawken 54 Cal. Rebore
Pietta 1858 .44 with 45 Colt Conversion
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mark1945
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mark1945

Male Number of posts : 217
Age : 74
Location : Portland Texas
Registration date : 2015-08-20

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyAugust 18th 2019, 6:11 pm

Only gun I have problem with crud ring is my Pedersoli 45/120 if I load it with Pyrodex . I get 1 shot and have to use a bore brush from the breech to be able to get the next round to chamber. I can get several shots with 2f before it needs a cleaning . Ive tried all kinds of lube on the bullet and so far has made no difference.

_________________
CVA 50 cal Mountain Rifle         Pedersoli Quigley 45/70          Pedratti  45/90  sharps                             
CVA 50 cal Mountain Pistol        Pedersoli Quigley 45/120        Lyman Great Plains 54 cal Flintlock
2 CVA 45 cal  Kentucky Rifles    Pedersoli Kodiak Safari 72 cal  Pietta 1858 Remington New Army 44 cal
Cabelas 58 cal Hawken             Colt Navy 36 cal                     Pietta 1863 Remington pocket rev 31 cal
Pedersoli Kodiak 58 cal             CVA 58 Cal. Mountain Rifle      Classic Arms Co 44 Cal New Orleans Ace
CVA 45 Cal Derringer               TC Renegade 54cal                 Navy Arms Co. Pietta 12 gauge double
Pedersoli 12 gauge double        Traditions Crockett 32 cal        2 Traditions Mountain Rifles 50 cal
Pietta 1851 Conf Navy 44
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Idaholewis

Idaholewis

Number of posts : 447
Age : 46
Location : North Idaho
Registration date : 2019-01-11

Why I still like 777 over Real Black Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why I still like 777 over Real Black   Why I still like 777 over Real Black EmptyYesterday at 7:11 am

209s with Triple 7 is a Recipe for a NASTY Crud Ring. My problem came from my DRY Paper Patch Bullets, No lube of any kind, Just slide the DRY Paper Patched Bullet down and Fire, The Crud ring was HARSH here! Like i said, i had to back up with my Range Rod and Ram in to it, and instead of using a “Moist” Patch, i used Dripping wet Saturated Patches, Then Several Dry Patches. Accuracy was AWESOME, But the Crud Ring was HORRID to work with
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