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 "Made in USA" older CVA .50

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Renegadehunter

Renegadehunter

Male Number of posts : 90
Age : 46
Location : Idaho
Registration date : 2018-10-12

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PostSubject: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 15th 2019, 3:38 pm

So, my father-in-law (FIL) was just given a CVA .50 hawken by his FIL.  Apparently he bought it as a kit, put it together, browned the barrel, and then it hung on the wall and it hasn't ever been shot.  This is pretty cool to me, as I've read that the older CVA's are pretty good shooters.
I haven't looked it over too close yet (didn't have my bore light with me or a jag & patch so I could run it down the barrel and see what it feels like in there), I do have some concern about rust if it wasn't protected with something while sitting for so long, but the outside looks good.  It has a double trigger and I noticed right away that the set trigger doesn't work.  So here are my questions:
1. The set trigger.  My first thought was either some wood wasn't removed when he built it and is creating a problem, or the lock screw is simply tightened down too much.  First things I'll check, but do any of you have any other thoughts/ideas about this?
2. Are these normally a 1:48 twist?
3. Shallow rifling like my TC Renegade that'll prefer a fairly thick patch?

Any other info anyone wants to share about an early CVA is welcome.  Thanks.
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Firestick

Firestick

Male Number of posts : 109
Age : 62
Location : Wyoming
Registration date : 2019-02-18

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 15th 2019, 3:47 pm

My old CVA Mountain Rifle is 1-60 twist and likes thick .023 patching. It is a pretty good shooting rifle. Easy on the shoulder with prb and 80 grains equiv of Black MZ or 80 grains of GEOX 3f
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mark1945
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mark1945

Male Number of posts : 218
Age : 74
Location : Portland Texas
Registration date : 2015-08-20

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 15th 2019, 5:26 pm

I have one of the CVA 50 Mountain rifles made in USA I built it back in the early 70's they are 1-66 twist but mine does shoot Lee Real bullets just fine. With round ball I use at least a .020 patch any thinner you cant tell what your gonna hit .I have killed several Deer with mine several at over 100 yards cant do that now cant see good enough for much over 75 . "Made in USA" older CVA .50 Cva_pa10

_________________
CVA 50 cal Mountain Rifle         Pedersoli Quigley 45/70          Pedratti  45/90  sharps                             
CVA 50 cal Mountain Pistol        Pedersoli Quigley 45/120        Lyman Great Plains 54 cal Flintlock
2 CVA 45 cal  Kentucky Rifles    Pedersoli Kodiak Safari 72 cal  Pietta 1858 Remington New Army 44 cal
Cabelas 58 cal Hawken             Colt Navy 36 cal                     Pietta 1863 Remington pocket rev 31 cal
Pedersoli Kodiak 58 cal             CVA 58 Cal. Mountain Rifle      Classic Arms Co 44 Cal New Orleans Ace
CVA 45 Cal Derringer               TC Renegade 54cal                 Navy Arms Co. Pietta 12 gauge double
Pedersoli 12 gauge double        Traditions Crockett 32 cal        2 Traditions Mountain Rifles 50 cal
Pietta 1851 Conf Navy 44


Last edited by mark1945 on July 16th 2019, 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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FrontierGander
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FrontierGander

Male Number of posts : 16319
Age : 35
Location : Boncarbo,Colorado
Registration date : 2008-05-19

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 15th 2019, 5:41 pm

@Renegadehunter wrote:
So, my father-in-law (FIL) was just given a CVA .50 hawken by his FIL.  Apparently he bought it as a kit, put it together, browned the barrel, and then it hung on the wall and it hasn't ever been shot.  This is pretty cool to me, as I've read that the older CVA's are pretty good shooters.
I haven't looked it over too close yet (didn't have my bore light with me or a jag & patch so I could run it down the barrel and see what it feels like in there), I do have some concern about rust if it wasn't protected with something while sitting for so long, but the outside looks good.  It has a double trigger and I noticed right away that the set trigger doesn't work.  So here are my questions:
1. The set trigger.  My first thought was either some wood wasn't removed when he built it and is creating a problem, or the lock screw is simply tightened down too much.  First things I'll check, but do any of you have any other thoughts/ideas about this?
2. Are these normally a 1:48 twist?
3. Shallow rifling like my TC Renegade that'll prefer a fairly thick patch?

Any other info anyone wants to share about an early CVA is welcome.  Thanks.

Made in USA would mean that it is a CVA Mountain rifle, 32" barrel, double wedge keys and most likely a Maple stock.

Set triggers on these always seem to be out of adjustment as some folks prefer to use them as a single trigger set up. Easy to adjust once you learn what each screw does.

.50cal will have a 1:66 twist for this model. Patch thickness I'd easily suggest a .490 round ball and a .018 patch minimum.
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Renegadehunter

Renegadehunter

Male Number of posts : 90
Age : 46
Location : Idaho
Registration date : 2018-10-12

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 16th 2019, 6:42 am

Good info everyone, thanks.
I'm excited to hear it has a RB twist and will be sure to pick up some thicker patching.  My renegade takes .018" pillow, I'll try that but have some thicker on hand as well.
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OldMtnMan

OldMtnMan

Male Number of posts : 10400
Age : 76
Location : Buena Vista, Colorado
Registration date : 2010-09-23

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 16th 2019, 7:09 am

Didn't the USA made versions have Douglas barrels? Any markings on the barrel?

_________________
Pete

I'm addicted to black powder.
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Sparkitoff



Number of posts : 211
Age : 72
Location : NC
Registration date : 2018-06-08

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 16th 2019, 7:13 am

Mine is not a "mountain rifle" as it doesn't have two wedge keys. It is also a .54 FWIW. I got it from a friend that wasn't using it any more. Similar to your situation it was rusty in the barrel and the set trigger didn't work. I plugged the drum with a piece of rubber eraser and filled the barrel with vinegar overnight. Then I flushed and plunged it with the drum hole in hot water using a rod with a jag and patch. Next I ran 0000 steel wool on a patched jag in short strokes. I repeated the hot water flush and did the steel wool again this time soaked with WD40. The next flush was by pouring 91% alcohol about 1/3 of the barrel, covering the muzzle and shaking it and dumping.  Repeated a few times. After that I ran patches with WD40 and then dry repeating that until the orange was reduced to a light tint. At that point a increased the patch thickness to the most I could get to move in the barrel without getting stuck and I used those with WD40 and dry. This took more than an hour initially. After a few days I repeated the patches with WD40 and every few days after that until they just stopped coming out orange. Nothing scientific about my procedure, I admit I winged it … but it worked. For the trigger group:  I took it out, backed out all the screws and read on-line directions about how to use and set them. Once I figured out how it works I began to adjust a little at a time until they worked out of the rifle. When I installed them, they continued to work.  Hopefully you will experience that but as you said sometimes with a kit or a poor inletting you need to look at the wood. This turned out to be a great PRB shooter and a good hunting rifle as it is my shortest and lightest .54.  Best of luck to you!
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Idaholewis

Idaholewis

Number of posts : 460
Age : 46
Location : North Idaho
Registration date : 2019-01-11

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 16th 2019, 7:30 am

I have a Brand New 1 in .45 Cal and love it! These Old CVA USA Stamped Mountain Rifles are VERY NICE, and Fairly Sought after. This thread reminds me, I need to get out and Shoot mine :rtup


 Does your FIL’s have a 2 or 4 Screw Patch Box? Is the Thimbles Round, or Square?


 “DISCLAIMER” I don’t know ANY of this for Fact, Just what i have Read.
   I have read conflicting stuff on the Douglas Barrel deal, Supposedly some of the Very first ones were made using Old Douglas Barrel equipment, But from my reading most were made overseas (Not assembled there) They were Shipped Here, assembled here, and Stamped USA


  I will say that i have had my Hands on an Old CVA MR Barrel that Was Stamped “DOUGLAS” on the underside of the barrel. Jim Carpenter, the man that Built my Fast twist .36 Caliber Had one of these on his Bench. Mine doesn’t Say DOUGLAS on it. Mine is Old, it has the Square Pewter Thimbles, and 4 Screw Patch Box
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mark1945
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mark1945

Male Number of posts : 218
Age : 74
Location : Portland Texas
Registration date : 2015-08-20

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 16th 2019, 9:04 am

Idaho mine is 4 screw patch box and square thimbles . Mine is stamped made in USA I never had any problems with set triggers got them adjusted back in the 70s then put a spot of red loctite on the screw and has stayed adjusted for over 40 years. I have always heard that the USA barrels were Douglas but never saw any marks on mine . My 58 Mountain is made in Spain its almost identical except the 58's dont have a patch box.

_________________
CVA 50 cal Mountain Rifle         Pedersoli Quigley 45/70          Pedratti  45/90  sharps                             
CVA 50 cal Mountain Pistol        Pedersoli Quigley 45/120        Lyman Great Plains 54 cal Flintlock
2 CVA 45 cal  Kentucky Rifles    Pedersoli Kodiak Safari 72 cal  Pietta 1858 Remington New Army 44 cal
Cabelas 58 cal Hawken             Colt Navy 36 cal                     Pietta 1863 Remington pocket rev 31 cal
Pedersoli Kodiak 58 cal             CVA 58 Cal. Mountain Rifle      Classic Arms Co 44 Cal New Orleans Ace
CVA 45 Cal Derringer               TC Renegade 54cal                 Navy Arms Co. Pietta 12 gauge double
Pedersoli 12 gauge double        Traditions Crockett 32 cal        2 Traditions Mountain Rifles 50 cal
Pietta 1851 Conf Navy 44
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Idaholewis

Idaholewis

Number of posts : 460
Age : 46
Location : North Idaho
Registration date : 2019-01-11

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 16th 2019, 9:45 am

@mark1945 wrote:
Idaho mine is 4 screw patch box and square thimbles . Mine is stamped made in USA I never had any problems with set triggers got them adjusted back in the 70s then put a spot of red loctite on the screw and has stayed adjusted for over 40 years. I have always heard that the USA barrels were Douglas but never saw any marks on mine . My 58 Mountain is made in Spain its almost identical except the 58's dont have a patch box.

Mark,  My .45 Cal CVA MR looks identical to the photo above of yours on the Jeep Hood.

 I have heard a little about the .58s, But have never seen one myself? I know a DIE HARD TC Guy that told me he ALWAYS Wanted 1 of the Big Bore 58 MRs But never has found one at what he felt was a reasonable price. He just needs to Dig a little deeper in the Wallet Very Happy
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mark1945
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mark1945

Male Number of posts : 218
Age : 74
Location : Portland Texas
Registration date : 2015-08-20

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 16th 2019, 9:51 am

Idaho , I lucked into mine on a gun trader web site guy I got it from had stuck it in a closet for years had some surface rust but it cleaned up just fine bore is not too bad ,shoots good. He just wanted to get rid of it as he was moving asked me if 50.00 was too much and of course I took it. usually I have to overpay if its one I want.

_________________
CVA 50 cal Mountain Rifle         Pedersoli Quigley 45/70          Pedratti  45/90  sharps                             
CVA 50 cal Mountain Pistol        Pedersoli Quigley 45/120        Lyman Great Plains 54 cal Flintlock
2 CVA 45 cal  Kentucky Rifles    Pedersoli Kodiak Safari 72 cal  Pietta 1858 Remington New Army 44 cal
Cabelas 58 cal Hawken             Colt Navy 36 cal                     Pietta 1863 Remington pocket rev 31 cal
Pedersoli Kodiak 58 cal             CVA 58 Cal. Mountain Rifle      Classic Arms Co 44 Cal New Orleans Ace
CVA 45 Cal Derringer               TC Renegade 54cal                 Navy Arms Co. Pietta 12 gauge double
Pedersoli 12 gauge double        Traditions Crockett 32 cal        2 Traditions Mountain Rifles 50 cal
Pietta 1851 Conf Navy 44
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Firestick

Firestick

Male Number of posts : 109
Age : 62
Location : Wyoming
Registration date : 2019-02-18

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 16th 2019, 7:22 pm

While researching my CVA MR I came upon a thread that was about the mystic surrounding these rifles. One contributor was a former employee of CVA and said the only Douglas barrels used were in the development stage and that the rifles sold were not Douglas barrels. They were a quality barrel however and the CVA's are known to be good shooting rifles. I like mine after I replaced the factory defective trigger.
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Renegadehunter

Renegadehunter

Male Number of posts : 90
Age : 46
Location : Idaho
Registration date : 2018-10-12

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 17th 2019, 2:42 pm

I can't answer the above questions without looking at it again, my FIL still has it.  He said I could grab it and check out the bore and see if I can get the set trigger working whenever I want to, just need to go grab it from him.  Probably be next week, this week and weekend are full.
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BP Addict



Male Number of posts : 11
Age : 61
Location : Cottage Grove, Oregon
Registration date : 2019-07-30

"Made in USA" older CVA .50 Empty
PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 30th 2019, 11:04 am

The Mountain rifle was the pinnacle of CVA’s engineering.  There’s a seller on Gun Broker who claims that none were marked as such but I’ve seen a couple.  I believe they were made in the ‘90s.
 
I’ve heard from reliable sources that the “Made in USA” barrels were Douglas.  The rifling is 1-66 and .010” to .012” deep.  There’s a formula on the internet on how much powder to use based on cubic inches of bore.  I came up with 70 grains.  However, sparks of unburnt powder were flying out the muzzle so I backed it down to 60.  I’ve always liked 3F as it was touted as being cleaner burning.
 
I have a newer (completely made in Spain) 50 cal. Mountain rifle.  I use a .490 RB with Pillow Ticking (.017 to .018) and 60 grains of 2F BP (I figured a slower burning powder might be better in a longer barrel plus a lighter recoil).  Accuracy is phenomenal with tight groups.  On top of that, this is the best “balanced” rifle I’ve ever put to my shoulder!
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FrontierGander
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FrontierGander

Male Number of posts : 16319
Age : 35
Location : Boncarbo,Colorado
Registration date : 2008-05-19

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 30th 2019, 11:10 am

Welcome to the forum BP Addict :rtup
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rp77469



Number of posts : 1
Age : 68
Location : Republic of Texas
Registration date : 2018-03-09

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 30th 2019, 1:39 pm

I have 3 of the US made CVA Mountain Rifles.  One a kit I built in the late 70's has some 8-10,000 rounds through it.  One is a factory .50 that has never been fired that I am saving as a backup, and the third is a US kit in .45 I bought for my older son.  No trigger problems in the least.  I did have to shim out the triggers with a thin piece of cardboard on the first rifle because it was inlet too deep at the factory.  Shim has been there 40+ years and no trigger problems in all those rounds.  I use .490, 70gr 3f or 80gr 2f - same grouping-, .016 patch and a half dozen types of lubes work fine.  At the range, I use sloppy thick-greased patches of Wonder Lube and can shoot all day without cleaning.  Enjoy your CVA Mt. Rifle.  Best buy for the money back in the day, and mine still shoots better than my Lyman GPR  and a custom flinter that cost more than 10X more than any of the Mt. Rifles.  Enjoy!
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Eichholz



Male Number of posts : 7
Age : 112
Location : Michigan
Registration date : 2017-03-29

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 30th 2019, 5:32 pm

CVA barrels use steel of infinitely better quality than did Douglas.

I am one of the two metallurgical expert witnesses at the lawsuit Douglas settled, agreeing (probably with their insurance company) to cease producing these barrels. The left-handed shooter had only the ring and little fingers, with associated palm bones, remaining on his right hand, which had been holding the forestock.

I formerly used Douglas barrels, from about 1961 until the 1980's when I saw how some of them could come apart. Haven't shot one since.

Coupla months ago bought myself a Traditions (same maker, different names now) full-stock percussion very s-l-o-w-l-y being restyled to be a Leman Indian trade rifle. Don't shoot much these days but I like the metallurgy - strength and toughness - of these Spanish barrels. Pedersoli use tough steel as well. 

October-November-December 1985 Muzzle Blasts were kind enough to print what I had to say about those barrels made from free-machining scxrew stock, no toughness at all if something goes wrong.
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FrontierGander
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FrontierGander

Male Number of posts : 16319
Age : 35
Location : Boncarbo,Colorado
Registration date : 2008-05-19

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 30th 2019, 5:39 pm

I'd like to see that traditions after you are finished!
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Eichholz



Male Number of posts : 7
Age : 112
Location : Michigan
Registration date : 2017-03-29

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 31st 2019, 6:31 am

FrontierGander - if longevity favors both of us, I'll post it here 

Old Geezer Eichholtz
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OldMtnMan

OldMtnMan

Male Number of posts : 10400
Age : 76
Location : Buena Vista, Colorado
Registration date : 2010-09-23

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 31st 2019, 6:34 am

Geezer........You put your address for your age.  Very Happy

_________________
Pete

I'm addicted to black powder.
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Eichholz



Male Number of posts : 7
Age : 112
Location : Michigan
Registration date : 2017-03-29

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 31st 2019, 7:02 am

House number is 514 - did I list that as my age? Brain a bit mixed up these days & probably lied about both anyway.

Removed a lot of wood from that Traditions stock so it at least has the profile of a proper Leman, pinned & glued that 2-piece stock and got rid of the brass plate. Expect to paint stripes on it eventually, got some deer rawhide to hide the stock joint & generally look like (fake) old repairs. Have some old solid brass tacks  Think I have a proper patchbox to put on it. (who uses those things anyway?). Parts are strewn about my workbench. Yes, I know where my bench is but can't necessarily see the surface. Also shoot air guns around that bench - can practice indoors without police being called.
Time, time, time and too many projects.
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BP Addict



Male Number of posts : 11
Age : 61
Location : Cottage Grove, Oregon
Registration date : 2019-07-30

"Made in USA" older CVA .50 Empty
PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 31st 2019, 11:21 am

Thanks for the acknowledgement, FrontierGander.


I’m new to this forum but not to Muzzle Loading.  I’ve been collecting and shooting them since the mid-80s.  I’m also a Field Rep for the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association (NMLRA) as well as President of my local club. 



My favorites are the older (pre-1991) CVAs.  They have a 1-66 RB twist (with the exception of the Frontier Carbine, Apollo, Squirrel and Stalker Rifles).  1-48 twist barrels were an accessory only.  You also won’t find “Please read instructions before use” on the barrels!


Last edited by BP Addict on July 31st 2019, 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BP Addict



Male Number of posts : 11
Age : 61
Location : Cottage Grove, Oregon
Registration date : 2019-07-30

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyJuly 31st 2019, 11:33 am

I missed one of your questions Renegadehunter.
 
This is from the owner’s manual:
 
2) Double Set Trigger Assembly:
a) The CVA DOUBLE SET TRIGGER refers to two triggers in which the rear trigger is pulled (cocked) until an audible “click’ is heard.  This indicates the front trigger is activated or “set”.  Very LIGHT pressure on the front trigger will then fire the muzzleloader.
b)  All CVA muzzleloaders equipped with a double set trigger, are designed so a direct, but long and heavy pull on the front trigger will also fire the firearm without the necessity of “cocking” the rear trigger.
c)  If your CVA muzzleloader is equipped with a double set trigger, it should be adjusted as follows.
d)  The small screw in the middle of the triggers, when tightened (turned clockwise WITH THE TRIGGERS POINTING UP), reduces sear engagement in the lock and reduces the “trigger pull” weight.
CAUTION:  Overtightening (clockwise with triggers pointing up) of this small screw in the middle of the triggers will create a dangerous “hair” trigger and will cause rapid wear, allowing the possibility of accidental firing.
e)   There is another small screw behind the two triggers that adjusts the height of the sear trip lever and the power let-off.  If the hammer does not cock in the non-set position, the trip lever is adjusted too high.  It should be adjusted as follows, normally this is factory adjusted and should not be touched,
f)  Set the trigger.  Turn this small screw clockwise (with triggers pointing up) until it stops.  Then turn same screw ½ turn counterclockwise.
g)  Test operation and fine tune both screws.
 
I once had a couple of Mountain rifles that wouldn’t go to full cock without pressing the set trigger first.  I adjusted the rear screw to no avail.  I actually had to remove the assembly and back off the screw on the rear spring.  Too much pressure on this causes the “set” lever to engage the sear so that the lock won’t cock.  Problem fixed.  This seems to be more prevalent on “kit” guns.
 
There is also a sear adjustment screw inside the lock.  You need to be careful adjusting this as it could cause the gun to off accidentally.  Here's a photo:


https://servimg.com/view/20097639/2
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Renegadehunter

Renegadehunter

Male Number of posts : 90
Age : 46
Location : Idaho
Registration date : 2018-10-12

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PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyAugust 1st 2019, 2:02 pm

Excellent BP Addict, that will serve me well when I start working on it, thanks a lot!

As I remember, it will cock just fine and the front trigger will drop the hammer, but the set trigger doesn't "click" and set for the lighter front trigger pull.  I'm also not sure if it had a half cock position...are they supposed to?

I'm going to go pick it up this evening after work.  I'm also very curious what condition the bore is in and want to run a patch down to check it.  Hopefully I won't be doing a bunch of lapping but I'm not holding my breath.  I'd be really surprised if anything was put in the bore for protection years ago when he completed the build.  We'll see what the patch looks like...
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Hanshi

Hanshi

Male Number of posts : 347
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Location : Maine
Registration date : 2015-01-21

"Made in USA" older CVA .50 Empty
PostSubject: Re: "Made in USA" older CVA .50   "Made in USA" older CVA .50 EmptyAugust 1st 2019, 4:50 pm

I had an old CVA cheapo kit rifle .50 a friend gave to me.  That sucker would really shoot!  I killed deer with it but eventually sold it to satisfy an itch to get something new.
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http://www.martialartsusa.com
 
"Made in USA" older CVA .50
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