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 Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges

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Renegadehunter

Renegadehunter

Male Number of posts : 105
Age : 46
Location : Idaho
Registration date : 2018-10-12

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PostSubject: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-05, 07:11

Hey Lew, I was thinking about how you meticulously weigh out your powder charges.
Have you ever ran a test to compare weighing them vs. using a volume measure?  Just curious, as I currently don't have a scale that I could experiment with.  I've decided I'll be getting one though, but mainly so I can weigh my arrows on it.
I had a thought for two tests.  The first would be just pouring powder into a volume measure...carefully using the same method each time...and then weighing out the charges to see how much variation there is between them.  The second would be to then shoot weighed out charges vs. volume measure charges and compare groups.  I hear a lot that BP isn't picky as far as a couple grains go, so I was curious that if the first test showed quite a bit of variation between charges from a volume measure, then the second test may or may not show that it matters a whole lot on paper...
I know you've done a whole lot of playing around and testing, so was curious if you might've already done the above tests?
Of course anyone else that wants to "weigh in" on this is welcome to.
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Sparkitoff



Number of posts : 222
Age : 72
Location : NC
Registration date : 2018-06-08

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PostSubject: Re: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-05, 10:20

I have used a volumetric system and chronographed the loads.  After 10-shots I got an average velocity and a spread.  I repeated the same thing weighing each charge. I decided on the weight by filling one volumetric charge into the scale pan. Then I stuck to that weight for the charge each time. The average velocity was the same. The spread went from 23 fps to 16 fps.  I thought insignificant and stuck with volumetric to keep it simple.
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Idaholewis

Idaholewis

Number of posts : 497
Age : 46
Location : North Idaho
Registration date : 2019-01-11

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PostSubject: Re: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-05, 11:00

I have never actually tested the difference? My mentality of weighing my Charges by Weight Grains to the 10th of a Grain comes from my 30 Plus years of Reloading Precision Centerfire Rifle and Shooting them to 1,000 Yards, Everything has to be PERFECT. To me personally, it just makes sense that IDENTICAL Weight Charges would be more Consistent with Blackpowder, the Same as it is For Centerfire. But as Sparkitoff just said, he tried it and the Spread was virtually identical, That is KEY!! I would say that it boils down to Your method of Volume Measuring, if you can Volume measure and Keep the Extreme Spread that Close, then NO DOUBT you won’t see any difference in accuracy. The Key is being able to Consistently fill the Volume Measure, TAP TAP TAP etc. Til you come up with a method that gives you CONSTANT, CONSISTENT Throws. 

 Me personally, I don’t trust Volume, i have played around with it a Very Little bit, i was able to get Several Grains Different each time i weighed a Volume Throw and tested it on my Weight Scale, That was Enough for me to do away with Volume Measuring. Not only do i find Pre Weighing my Charges by Weight Grains to be FAR more Accurate, I also find pre weighing My charges MUCH more convenient. I am an 80 Grains of Swiss 2F Guy, i have at least 15 Muzzleloaders, 12 of them Shoot 80 Weight Grains of Swiss 2F STELLAR Good, with an ARRAY Of Bullets!! I usually know the night before if i plan to shoot the next Day? So The night before i Pre weigh my 80 Grain Charges and place them in my Vials. When i get out in the Field, my Powder charges are Already DONE, No need to Fiddle Around with a Can of Powder, a Powder Horn etc., I open a little Vial and Dump my PERFECTLY Weighed Charge Down the Bore, The Over Powder Wad, Then Bullet, That Quick and Easy.

 A Volume measure was designed to get you “Close Enough” for the field, I prefer Perfection over “Close Enough” 

Load Development in the Field is a Different Thing, If you are trying to Develop a Load you need the ability to Try say 70, 80, 90 Etc. Grains, It would Suck if you had ALL 80 Grain loads weighed out and Your Rifle didn’t Shoot it well. In this Cases I would say go Volume, Even Though it is Not IDENTICAL, you will know if your Rifle Gets Better, or Worse with More, or Less Powder? When you get to the Best performance of the Day, take a Note of that on your Volume measure, Test that Best Volume on a Weight Scale to get an Average in Weight Grains? Now Pre weigh enough of that Charge on a Weight Scale to PERFECTION and Test it in the Field by Group Shooting, See if it’s worth it to you or not? If you can’t tell a Difference Between the PERFECTLY weighed Charges and Where the Volume Measure gave you best Results, Then i would say to go with Whichever is more Convenient to you? To me personally, it is Pre Weighed ALL THE WAY
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Sparkitoff



Number of posts : 222
Age : 72
Location : NC
Registration date : 2018-06-08

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PostSubject: Re: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-05, 11:08

Good stuff there.  I just tried one more thing out of curiosity.  I filled one volumetric measure and weighed the charge. Filled another with the same measure and weighted it. 2.1 grains difference.  So, if you have a good load developed using a volumetric measure it is best to stick with that same one, and to know the grains equivalent.  If you ever had to switch measurers for some reason you might be able to modify one slightly to achieve the same grains weight and make it comparable to the previous measurer.
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FrontierGander
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FrontierGander

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PostSubject: Re: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-05, 11:10

+/- 2 grains certainly will not show up on target. Smokeless powder, it would make a huge difference.
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Idaholewis

Idaholewis

Number of posts : 497
Age : 46
Location : North Idaho
Registration date : 2019-01-11

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PostSubject: Re: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-05, 12:05

@FrontierGander wrote:
+/- 2 grains certainly will not show up on target. Smokeless powder, it would make a huge difference.

This is a PERFECT way to test, This is how i will actually test this +/- 2 Grains is Fair, and about what I remember seeing Different when i tested Volume to Grain Weights. I will shoot a 6 Shot Group Total, 3 Shots will be Weighed IDENTICAL, 80 Grains on the Dot, And the other 3 will be 78 Grains. I will mark all 6 Charges so I know which is Which. I will Shoot an 80, then a 78, an 80, then 78 again, just alternate back n forth Until the 6 Shot Group is Done, Keeping Track of Each Shot On Target. I am actually REALLY curious if i can see a Difference?
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Renegadehunter

Renegadehunter

Male Number of posts : 105
Age : 46
Location : Idaho
Registration date : 2018-10-12

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PostSubject: Re: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-05, 12:52

That was why I posted it, just pure curiosity.  I wasn't knocking you at all for weighing them, I can see where those vials are pretty darn convenient.  Can't wait to see what your test shows just for the curious, I like to experiment fun factor part of this obsession.

I like using an antler volume measure that I made just for the fun of it, purely for my own kicks.  I have a couple from whitetail sheds that are for PRB loads and one from an elk shed that is drilled for my conical elk load.  Last year I also made a field flask from an elk antler base, it holds right at 500 grains of 2f, which is 5 loads for my elk conical setup.  Just fun for me to use.
I like to fill a volume measure almost to the brim, give it a couple of taps with the bottom of the powder flask, and then top off.  When I get a scale I'll have to check to see how close several charges are doing it that way.
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msellers



Number of posts : 17
Age : 34
Location : NE Nevada
Registration date : 2019-02-16

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PostSubject: Re: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-05, 15:28

Read a post somewhere else where the same volume of Swiss was almost 12 grains more as I recall. Will try and find that post again and clarify for certain. Just another food for thought.
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Idaholewis

Idaholewis

Number of posts : 497
Age : 46
Location : North Idaho
Registration date : 2019-01-11

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PostSubject: Re: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-05, 16:16

@msellers wrote:
Read a post somewhere else where the same volume of Swiss was almost 12 grains more as I recall. Will try and find that post again and clarify for certain. Just another food for thought.

I have tested this MANY times over the last few years and it is SO CLOSE Volume to Weight that I don’t even think about it. Here is my most Recent Test, this was just a few months ago (June) 

Here is 80 Volume Grains of Swiss 2F, Tested for Weight on my Little Digital Scale, Can’t get much closer than this. This is what i have found everytime i have tested for Difference

Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges BCAA5277-9319-4506-9-A38-39-B9-FDF383-CB
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msellers



Number of posts : 17
Age : 34
Location : NE Nevada
Registration date : 2019-02-16

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PostSubject: Re: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-05, 16:18

@Idaholewis wrote:
@msellers wrote:
Read a post somewhere else where the same volume of Swiss was almost 12 grains more as I recall. Will try and find that post again and clarify for certain. Just another food for thought.

I have tested this MANY times over the last few years and it is SO CLOSE Volume to Weight that I don’t even think about it. Here is my most Recent Test, this was just a few months ago (June) 

Here is 80 Volume Grains of Swiss 2F, Tested for Weight on my Little Digital Scale, Can’t get much closer than this. This is what i have found everytime i have tested for Difference
Thanks for clarifying this and showing me. Is always good to clear up a misconception. 
Mike
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Marty
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Marty

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PostSubject: Re: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-05, 19:19

I weigh all my powder charges but first check my weighing scale against a volume measurement to make sure I'm in the ball park.
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heelerau

heelerau

Male Number of posts : 176
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PostSubject: Re: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-10, 14:56

I weigh charges for the range as we are not allowed to load from the flask. In the past I have found that for both rifled musket and fowling piece , measuring from the flask,  I  might vary one or two grains and it is not enough  to worry about. You have to be consistent in how you handle your flask. 
     I do  check weigh charges when loading for metallic or paper cartridge. That is after throwing  a half dozen or so charges from my powder dispenser, I will check one on the scale and adjust the dispenser accordingly. Then maybe halfway through the run of say 20 or 30 cartridges. It might increase by 1/2 a grain at most.

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mushka



Number of posts : 8
Age : 75
Location : Yuma Az
Registration date : 2018-07-09

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PostSubject: Re: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-17, 13:57

Thanks for this topic.  I am reasonably new with the black powder shooting and I have made several volume powder dispensers. 20 grn, 30, 40, 50, 70, and 80 grn dispensers.  I pour the powder into them from one of those brass powder carriers with the cut off lever.  I'm always  either heavier or lighter and always wonderd if it made a difference actually.  This post has shown me that it's normal and generally doesn't make much if any difference for the kind of shooting that I do.  Mostly plinking or paper at 50 yards.  It put my jumbled mind to rest on this subject.  I can be all happy again.
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Idaholewis

Idaholewis

Number of posts : 497
Age : 46
Location : North Idaho
Registration date : 2019-01-11

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PostSubject: Re: Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges   Question/test for Idaholewis-weighing charges Empty2019-09-17, 19:54

@mushka wrote:
Thanks for this topic.  I am reasonably new with the black powder shooting and I have made several volume powder dispensers. 20 grn, 30, 40, 50, 70, and 80 grn dispensers.  I pour the powder into them from one of those brass powder carriers with the cut off lever.  I'm always  either heavier or lighter and always wonderd if it made a difference actually.  This post has shown me that it's normal and generally doesn't make much if any difference for the kind of shooting that I do.  Mostly plinking or paper at 50 yards.  It put my jumbled mind to rest on this subject.  I can be all happy again.

For what you are doing I doubt you would notice a difference? I am a picky guy, But i also expect a LOT out of my Guns, be it 50 yards, or 500 Yards, I feel like i need to give them EVERY chance to Show me their Accuracy potential. If i give a Rifle EVERY possible chance to perform at it’s best and it doesn’t? Then i am happy to get Rid of it! I would be a BAD Person to buy a Used Rifle from Very Happy
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