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 Black MZ Review

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OldMtnMan

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 5th 2013, 3:58 pm

I agree Marty. I'd never use this powder. Not when Swiss makes such a beautiful powder that works in all guns including flintlocks, with no special caps, primers, or breech plugs for the rest.

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 25th 2013, 11:30 am

Folks , just got back from the range used Black MZ 90 grs volume but weighed each charge to 77.1 grains which using frontiers chart for Shockey's Gold should be right on for 90.  Used it in my TC Omega with a PR Bullet 340 gr DEAD CENTER over top shot 4 3 shot groups at  110 yds biggest group off a hot barrel and my 1 screw up was about 3 inches.

I have to tell you I may upset a few folks but I think the clean-up was easier than with Blackhorn 209, now I was using the PR Bullet small rifle variflame which cuts fouling down a ton.  Overall I think if your willing to take the time and weigh your charges I have to say I like the powder.
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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 25th 2013, 5:45 pm

I like BH209 my guns like BH209 and they shot well with all the top powders as well as REAL BLACK and I am talking inline guns, but for me I am not sure that the price of BH and the clean up is any eaiser than the other powders..
I shot pinnacle powder that Falcon had given me on a trade that looked like clumped used cat litter and it shot good...I guess what I am saying is take the time to get the load,bullet,and loading practices down to the same way every time and you will see the clouds part...I shot up a can of JS Gold and it rocked , now talking sidelocks the same as above applies as well this isnt rocket science..
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falcon

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 27th 2013, 2:24 pm

DonJose is right.  None of this stuff is rocket science.  Just measure the charges the same every time, ram the ball the same every time, get the same position on the bags every time and you've got it made.  Me; i hate swabbing between shots so i just refuse to do it.  i also refuse to wait very long between shots.  Usually pick up the binos, take  look at the target after the shot.  Then the gun is de-capped and reloaded for the next shot.  

Some time ago i took the worst jug of Pinnacle on the place:   It was essentially one huge clump.  Broke up that powder and sifted out the fine stuff.   BTW:  The fines cause the clumping.  With the fines gone it became a world class powder so far as accuracy is concerned:   When my ballistician friend gets back from Saudi we will chronograph it.  

Last year i bought some blackpowder made for Grafs by Schuetzen.  i also tried Goex blackpowder.    This stuff is totally cruddy when compared to any of the substitutes.   Got some very good groups but the crud got the best of me.  

Yes, weighing an APP powder will often make it shoot much better. Weighing an APP powder with a lot of fines is not a total cure all: The APP powder fines are lighter than the non-fines.   The weight is right but the ratio of fines to non-fines may not be the same every time.   The fines burn much faster.  

DonJose:   GoJo is a fine patch lube for round ball.
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donjose

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 27th 2013, 5:53 pm

Yep Falcon, Gojo is a hidden treasure I was laughed at on another forum when I used it to swab with between shots, but the nice thing about it is the evaporation after use...
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patocazador

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 27th 2013, 6:11 pm

@donjose wrote:
Yep Falcon, Gojo is a hidden treasure I was laughed at on another forum when I used it to swab with between shots, but the nice thing about it is the evaporation after use...
For those ignorant people on here (me) please tell us what Go Jo is. scratch

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FrontierGander
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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 27th 2013, 6:13 pm

A hand cleaner
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patocazador

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 27th 2013, 6:15 pm

Not Goop?

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donjose

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 27th 2013, 6:54 pm

Use the one with out pumice
China Mart has gojo in the little tubs
Goop might work as well never tried that brand
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OldMtnMan

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 27th 2013, 6:55 pm

China Mart.  Very Happy

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cvilorio



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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 4:35 pm

@Clyde wrote:
Folks , just got back from the range used Black MZ 90 grs volume but weighed each charge to 77.1 grains which using frontiers chart for Shockey's Gold should be right on for 90.  Used it in my TC Omega with a PR Bullet 340 gr DEAD CENTER over top shot 4 3 shot groups at  110 yds biggest group off a hot barrel and my 1 screw up was about 3 inches.

I have to tell you I may upset a few folks but I think the clean-up was easier than with Blackhorn 209, now I was using the PR Bullet small rifle variflame which cuts fouling down a ton.  Overall I think if your willing to take the time and weigh your charges I have to say I like the powder.
No one is going to get upset about what you stated. We all shoot what we like, and that is what makes the world go round. I have tired all the powder subs out there, and at one time I almost gave up ML's from frustation, until I came across BH 209. Like some else stated this is not rocket science, all it is is using the right powder bullet combo, but Black MZ in my book is just like the rest of the other subs. Is not consistent from shot to shot whether you weight it or by volume, the ES spread is tremendous and you do have to clean the bore every 5 shot or so. Does it clean as easy as BH 209, I don't really know, I used it, tested it, and the clean up was just like BH 209 which the gun I shot today I clean with 6 patches. Maybe I'm wrong to say this, but a 3" group might be acceptable to some people, but to me is not. Knowing how the new ML,s shoot and how capable they are of shooting sub MOA groups at 100 yrs, I will not ship a gun out until it shoots a 1" or less at 100 yrds. There is really no comparison between Balck MZ and BH 209, the BH 209 is far superior to any other sub out there, and I don't mind paying the extra money for it. The groups you see below were shot today. A total of 21 shot fired, no cooling between shot, not clean the barrel every five shot, just load and shoot, the first was at 200 yrds, shot 18,19,20, and 21, and the second was the sight in at 100 yrds, one low shot adjusted and three thru the same hole. Try doing it with Black MZ, I did and could not get it to do it. I hope I did not offend any one it was not my intention, just stating the facts.
Carlos

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donjose

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 5:18 pm

Didnt hurt my feelings at all..



Here is my thought...

Bench accuracy has very little correlation with practical accuracy..
Accuracy which the shooter cannot appreciate from a field position in IMOP is not giving a true example of the shooter or weapon. Also the field accuracy of a rifle almost always exceeds what the bench accuracy would indicate. Make me laugh when a guy gets his best performance on his best day shot from the bench into his head as a example of how his field accuracy will be. It just ain't so.

This is not a slam to anyone just because you cant shoot a 1inch group from the bench or your weapon cant doesnt mean you are in trouble in the field... Just Saying 
Now I was sucked in to the target shooting game and little groups as well, but i also know that all I need to be able to do is put a shot in a ten inch circle from a field position up to 200 yards and guess what  deer down..


Donjose
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cvilorio



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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 6:39 pm

@donjose wrote:
Didnt hurt my feelings at all..



Here is my thought...

Bench accuracy has very little correlation with practical accuracy..
Accuracy which the shooter cannot appreciate from a field position in IMOP is not giving a true example of the shooter or weapon. Also the field accuracy of a rifle almost always exceeds what the bench accuracy would indicate. Make me laugh when a guy gets his best performance on his best day shot from the bench into his head as a example of how his field accuracy will be. It just ain't so.

This is not a slam to anyone just because you cant shoot a 1inch group from the bench or your weapon cant doesnt mean you are in trouble in the field... Just Saying 
Now I was sucked in to the target shooting game and little groups as well, but i also know that all I need to be able to do is put a shot in a ten inch circle from a field position up to 200 yards and guess what  deer down..


Donjose
You are right about bench shooting and field shooting, but the point here was the powders not the ability, and before you go out in the field, you have to sight in from a bench. Now that said, if you want to talk about field shooting and ability, you have the right guy right here, but before you say anything else, let me give a hint. Ft. Benning Ga., Sniper School Grad. 1985, plenty of filed shooting up to 1000 yrds. won't say any more on this subject.
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falcon

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 6:50 pm

The best hunter i know is not a very good bench shooter.   Before deer season he comes to the range with his nice Knight muzzleloader.  He fires one shot at a 2" bull at 100 meters.  If that shot hits in or near the bull he goes home.  If sight adjustments are needed he fires a few more shots.   Then he leaves the range to appear one year later.  

That retired Colonel kills several deer, a few elk, a few exotics, a few antelope, javelinas, and a bunch of wild hogs every year.  He has his own butcher shop, walk-in cooler and walk-in freezer.   Being a superb hunter counts for something.  

On a good day i can shoot with just about anyone out there.  i'm old and do what works for me.   The target pictures i put on the web are fired without swabbing, unless noted otherwise:   i hate ritual and swabbing.   Folks on another site seldom respond to my target posts because they believe that my brand X powder is not capable of good accuracy.  

Since getting back into muzzleloaders in 1999, i've killed  40-50 deer and a few hundred wild hogs.  In that time i have lost one animal, unfortunately it was a big elk.
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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 7:03 pm

What's the situation that lost the elk. Gun, load, and distance etc?

Just curious. Not busting your chops.

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donjose

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 7:13 pm

@cvilorio wrote:
@donjose wrote:
Didnt hurt my feelings at all..



Here is my thought...

Bench accuracy has very little correlation with practical accuracy..
Accuracy which the shooter cannot appreciate from a field position in IMOP is not giving a true example of the shooter or weapon. Also the field accuracy of a rifle almost always exceeds what the bench accuracy would indicate. Make me laugh when a guy gets his best performance on his best day shot from the bench into his head as a example of how his field accuracy will be. It just ain't so.

This is not a slam to anyone just because you cant shoot a 1inch group from the bench or your weapon cant doesnt mean you are in trouble in the field... Just Saying 
Now I was sucked in to the target shooting game and little groups as well, but i also know that all I need to be able to do is put a shot in a ten inch circle from a field position up to 200 yards and guess what  deer down..


Donjose
You are right about bench shooting and field shooting, but the point here was the powders not the ability, and before you go out in the field, you have to sight in from a bench. Now that said, if you want to talk about field shooting and ability, you have the right guy right here, but before you say anything else, let me give a hint. Ft. Benning Ga., Sniper School Grad. 1985, plenty of filed shooting up to 1000 yrds. won't say any more on this subject.
I have yet to find a powder that doesnt have the field accuracy in a inline to hit a 10inch plate at 200 yards....That is awesome you are a sniper so you have the training to help overcome field shooting issues..My point is not a slam at you as I stated above, I have no agenda other than to tell new shooters dont get caught up in the hype when learning the sport .Seems to me Jim Shockey has killed boat loads of game before BH209 ever came out and so has thousands of other hunters as well.. And thank you for your military service as well.
 I was in the Marine Corp and understand field shooting as well..Finally I also know that even getting a follow up shot in the field with a muzzleloader isnt going to be as easy as with a bolt or semi auto rifle.....
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cvilorio



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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 7:22 pm

@donjose wrote:
@cvilorio wrote:
@donjose wrote:
Didnt hurt my feelings at all..



Here is my thought...

Bench accuracy has very little correlation with practical accuracy..
Accuracy which the shooter cannot appreciate from a field position in IMOP is not giving a true example of the shooter or weapon. Also the field accuracy of a rifle almost always exceeds what the bench accuracy would indicate. Make me laugh when a guy gets his best performance on his best day shot from the bench into his head as a example of how his field accuracy will be. It just ain't so.

This is not a slam to anyone just because you cant shoot a 1inch group from the bench or your weapon cant doesnt mean you are in trouble in the field... Just Saying 
Now I was sucked in to the target shooting game and little groups as well, but i also know that all I need to be able to do is put a shot in a ten inch circle from a field position up to 200 yards and guess what  deer down..


Donjose
You are right about bench shooting and field shooting, but the point here was the powders not the ability, and before you go out in the field, you have to sight in from a bench. Now that said, if you want to talk about field shooting and ability, you have the right guy right here, but before you say anything else, let me give a hint. Ft. Benning Ga., Sniper School Grad. 1985, plenty of filed shooting up to 1000 yrds. won't say any more on this subject.
I have yet to find a powder that doesnt have the field accuracy in a inline to hit a 10inch plate at 200 yards....That is awesome you are a sniper so you have the training to help overcome field shooting issues..My point is not a slam at you as I stated above, I have no agenda other than to tell new shooters dont get caught up in the hype when learning the sport .Seems to me Jim Shockey has killed boat loads of game before BH209 ever came out and so has thousands of other hunters as well.. And thank you for your military service as well.
 I was in the Marine Corp and understand field shooting as well..Finally I also know that even getting a follow up shot in the field with a muzzleloader isnt going to be as easy as with a bolt or semi auto rifle.....
No slam taken, and also thank you for your service. Yes, Jim Shockey did kill a boat full of game before he switch to Bh 209, but if you notice before he change to BH 209 he never took a a shot over 100 yrds or so now he takes 250 shot.
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donjose

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 7:45 pm

I been wondering about that as well on his long shots but I was never able to get anyone of his people to answer me when I asked what powder he was using as of late.......
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FrontierGander
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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 7:46 pm

the huge velocity gap with the APP powders will give the shooter fits at 200 yards. I can certainly use it and get good hunting accuracy but consistency from one outing to the next, certainly is no where near as consistent as BH209.
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falcon

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 7:51 pm

"What's the situation that lost the elk. Gun, load, and distance etc?"

Gun was the CVA Mag Hunter .50 caliber. Load was 150 grains of Pyrodex RS and the 300 grain TC PTX bullet. Distance was 75 yards. One lung was solidly hit, the other was nicked. The bullet did not expand and the blood trail stopped after about 200 yards. My friend and his tracking dog were in CO. We looked for that elk for many hours and never found it. Another hunter found the animal in the late afternoon and took it out.

Planned on hunting with the 300 grain .430 XTP bullet. Listened to the hype of an "expert" who recommended the PTX. Turns out the guy is a BS artist.
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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 7:52 pm

I seem to remember Jim Shockey used 150gr of that powder. At close range it was going to work no matter how different the velocities were.

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 7:53 pm

FrontierMuzzleloading wrote:
the huge velocity gap with the APP powders will give the shooter fits at 200 yards. I can certainly use it and get good hunting accuracy but consistency from one outing to the next, certainly is no where near as consistent as BH209.
I understand Jon and I like BH209 the problem I have is most all muzzleloader shooters I know are Red Necks they go to China Mart and by there rifles,powders,bullets,scopes and sometimes bases for there rifles..And some have 200 yard kills with Pyrodex..I have learned over the years that the more money I spent compared to them on better stuff didnt make since...
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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 7:54 pm

@falcon wrote:
"What's the situation that lost the elk. Gun, load, and distance etc?"

Gun was the CVA Mag Hunter .50 caliber.  Load was 150 grains of Pyrodex RS and the 300 grain TC PTX bullet.  Distance was 75 yards.   One lung was solidly hit, the other was nicked.  The bullet did not expand and the blood trail stopped after about 200 yards.   My friend and his tracking dog were in CO.  We looked for that elk for many hours and never found it.  Another hunter found the animal in the late afternoon and took it out.  

Planned on hunting with the 300 grain .430 XTP bullet.  Listened to the hype of an "expert" who recommended the PTX.  Turns out the guy is a BS artist.  
That was bad luck. At least someone else got it down, and it didn't have to suffer.

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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 7:54 pm

I have read some complaints about that PTX bullet. Never seen the bullet personally so i'd have to look into that one.
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PostSubject: Re: Black MZ Review   August 28th 2013, 7:58 pm

@falcon wrote:
"What's the situation that lost the elk. Gun, load, and distance etc?"

Gun was the CVA Mag Hunter .50 caliber.  Load was 150 grains of Pyrodex RS and the 300 grain TC PTX bullet.  Distance was 75 yards.   One lung was solidly hit, the other was nicked.  The bullet did not expand and the blood trail stopped after about 200 yards.   My friend and his tracking dog were in CO.  We looked for that elk for many hours and never found it.  Another hunter found the animal in the late afternoon and took it out.  

Planned on hunting with the 300 grain .430 XTP bullet.  Listened to the hype of an "expert" who recommended the PTX.  Turns out the guy is a BS artist.  
I remember you telling me that story when I was at your house I am about to put a new scope on that CVA and get her ready again, that gun shoots Schuetzen Black Powder 3 Fg like a house on fire
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